NPHC Greeks - how do you feel about this?

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I know a lot of people who collect elephants. Matter of fact, my mother and I loved and collected elephants.

When I first started befriending the women who also happened be Deltas on the yard, I quickly learned that having elephants around my dorm room can be perceived the wrong way. Nothing was said to me but I could see facial expressions. I can't remember if I put them in a box or not.

In all fairness, the deep meanings will vary and always be debatable. The real issue is with identifiability.

The "ooo-oop" and elephant aren't official and may've started with a certain intent (the "ooo-oop" may've been a knock off of the New York call and I've heard posthoc stories of where the elephant significance comes from) but in the GLO realm of over a decade, and as far as many Sorority officials who aren't blind to reality of changing practices, it is now closely associated with Deltas.

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

I do know that not all the NPHC orgs officially and nationally recognize their call, handsign, mascot, etc. and I did hear that we may be the only one that does and I'm not sure about Iota Phi Theta. But for the record, Sigma Gamma Rho does in fact have an official call, handsign, and mascot that is recognized nationally and their meanings are of course made known to members.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning."

Yes.

But I really think this is a nontopic. I have never encountered a person or organization that unknowingly emulates our organizations.

The existence of PERPS through our more contemporary identifiers like handsigns and calls lets us know that there are thousands of people who recognize us by them. Whether there is a Founding purpose or not.

[L.O.C.K.]

Ladygreek...man you're so SMART!!! Hahaha, I like what you said a lot.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition? If you have a health fair for two years in a row, is it a tradition?

On one hand, I see people's points about the need to possess cultural heritage. Specifically, the Black community has been robbed countless times throughout history of its practices and traditions, so it seems natural to be protective of it. I'm sure if you reversed the roles of the last 600 years of Whites and Blacks you'd have the same want of many for protection and preservation of culture.

Yet, culture in itself is such a vague term. What constitutes it? Who can claim to have "ownership" of a certain cultural practice? In Greek terms, just adopting Greek letters is copying Phi Beta Kappa. Have secret rituals, etc. is also from them and before them the Masons. Everything is shared and mutates over time when different people adapt it to their own needs.

Like I said before, I think cultural defensiveness directly stems from how much you feel your culture has been taken from you. For example, if non-Scottish people started trying to play the bagpipes, I wouldn't be offended because inherently I feel I can have ownership of that "tradition" and "cultural" practice.

I don't know if any of my ramblings are making sense. I am trying to look at it from an academic point of view, ahaha.

As BluNYC2 said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Why do you think Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural Greeks are imitating Black Greeks? I think it comes from a need to find one's niche and establish a counter-culture that is anti-mainstream (ie White). Black Greeks have a much longer tradition of creating (and sustaining) this counter-culture. Because of this, people look to it for guidance and direction, sometimes even subconsciously.

D9 orgs have a lot of pride and history in themselves, and it is truly admirable and something people see. Now, you're seeing people measure themselves to standards of D9 orgs...Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural orgs have their measures of success based upon Black Greek orgs. 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible b/c anything that was Black or related to Black culture was considered bad by mainstream society.

Am I saying that everything is peachy now? Helllllll no. But the fact that people who aren't Black are emulating Black culture and traditions is truly intruiging on a sociological level. Is some of that imitation degrading? Yes of course (see people trying to act what they feel is "gangsta" or "ghetto"). However, when it comes to things like developing a strong presence on campus in the form of community programs, student organizational involvement, philanthropy, and alumni involvement, I personally feel that is a very good thing. Indeed, Black Greeks are the Gold Standard when it comes to that.

What I think has to happen now is that there needs to be more interraction between various Greek groups (ie NPC/NIC, NPHC, NALFO, NAPA, NMGC, etc) and beginning to develop mutual understanding and respect for each other (b/c I personally feel it doesn't exist now much outside of one's own ethnic Greek group) and share practices and ideas.

Imagine what could be done if things were shared and people had that cultural respect...man it'd be amazing.

Ok, I'm off my idealistic Soap Box now.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

Ladygreek...man you're so SMART!!! Hahaha, I like what you said a lot.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition? If you have a health fair for two years in a row, is it a tradition?

On one hand, I see people's points about the need to possess cultural heritage. Specifically, the Black community has been robbed countless times throughout history of its practices and traditions, so it seems natural to be protective of it. I'm sure if you reversed the roles of the last 600 years of Whites and Blacks you'd have the same want of many for protection and preservation of culture.

Yet, culture in itself is such a vague term. What constitutes it? Who can claim to have "ownership" of a certain cultural practice? In Greek terms, just adopting Greek letters is copying Phi Beta Kappa. Have secret rituals, etc. is also from them and before them the Masons. Everything is shared and mutates over time when different people adapt it to their own needs.

Like I said before, I think cultural defensiveness directly stems from how much you feel your culture has been taken from you. For example, if non-Scottish people started trying to play the bagpipes, I wouldn't be offended because inherently I feel I can have ownership of that "tradition" and "cultural" practice.

I don't know if any of my ramblings are making sense. I am trying to look at it from an academic point of view, ahaha.

As BluNYC2 said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Why do you think Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural Greeks are imitating Black Greeks? I think it comes from a need to find one's niche and establish a counter-culture that is anti-mainstream (ie White). Black Greeks have a much longer tradition of creating (and sustaining) this counter-culture. Because of this, people look to it for guidance and direction, sometimes even subconsciously.

D9 orgs have a lot of pride and history in themselves, and it is truly admirable and something people see. Now, you're seeing people measure themselves to standards of D9 orgs...Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural orgs have their measures of success based upon Black Greek orgs. 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible b/c anything that was Black or related to Black culture was considered bad by mainstream society.

Am I saying that everything is peachy now? Helllllll no. But the fact that people who aren't Black are emulating Black culture and traditions is truly intruiging on a sociological level. Is some of that imitation degrading? Yes of course (see people trying to act what they feel is "gangsta" or "ghetto"). However, when it comes to things like developing a strong presence on campus in the form of community programs, student organizational involvement, philanthropy, and alumni involvement, I personally feel that is a very good thing. Indeed, Black Greeks are the Gold Standard when it comes to that.

What I think has to happen now is that there needs to be more interraction between various Greek groups (ie NPC/NIC, NPHC, NALFO, NAPA, NMGC, etc) and beginning to develop mutual understanding and respect for each other (b/c I personally feel it doesn't exist now much outside of one's own ethnic Greek group) and share practices and ideas.

Imagine what could be done if things were shared and people had that cultural respect...man it'd be amazing.

Ok, I'm off my idealistic Soap Box now.

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

This is kind of what I was getting at. The last 2 posts expressed it perfectly. Thanks!

[Ilaria Ame]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

who do you see as "them"? i've never witnessed a non-HBGLO step, stroll, call, etc in jest. in fact, the orgs i've seen have been very serious about what they're doing and would be insulted to be told that they're not. i'm not saying what you said doesn't happen, but i just can't imagine it.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by Ilaria Ame

who do you see as "them"? i've never witnessed a non-HBGLO step, stroll, call, etc in jest. in fact, the orgs i've seen have been very serious about what they're doing and would be insulted to be told that they're not. i'm not saying what you said doesn't happen, but i just can't imagine it.

This happens all the time...especially among some PW fraternities and I'm talking about mocking Black culture in general, not just that of Black greek orgs. Every campus environment is different. At some schools all the greeks respect one another and at others all kinds of disrespect takes place. At one of the PWIs I attended, we didn't socialize with the PW greeks at all because of the things that were taking place and the disrespect that was shown to us. If they wanted to learn how to step it would have only been because they thought is was funny or "cool," not because they truly wanted to learn the artform.

As for the bolded text, if you're serious about what you do and you don't show disrespect to NPHC orgs, than I'm not talking about those orgs.

[Ilaria Ame]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This happens all the time...especially among some PW fraternities and I'm talking about mocking Black culture in general, not just that of Black greek orgs. Every campus environment is different. At some schools all the greeks respect one another and at others all kinds of disrespect takes place. At one of the PWIs I attended, we didn't socialize with the PW greeks at all because of the things that were taking place and the disrespect that was shown to us. If they wanted to learn how to step it would have only been because they thought is was funny or "cool," not because they truly wanted to learn the artform.

As for the bolded text, if you're serious about what you do and you don't show disrespect to NPHC orgs, than I'm not talking about those orgs.

oh, ok. like i said, it just blew my mind to think that this happens. that's sad sorry to show my ignorance, but what is a PW greek? i've never heard that term before.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition?

I really think people are putting 10 on 2 with this topic.

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

From a larger context: Any practice that breeds recognition and has done so for years across the country will be called a "tradition" by many. Not everyone will agree on that and not everyone has to.

Smaller context: If people want to use the term "tradition" then that's what they will do. My chapter had traditional programs and practices that no other organization on that campus had. I remember when another organization tried to take ALL of our ideas and formatting and rename it without even speaking to us about a collaboration. This didn't sit too well with us and the program wasn't accepted by the campus community. That's fine if folks want to adopt and adapt CERTAIN traditions. Just KNOW where you got it from and don't front like you and your organization came up with it. That also goes to NPHC traditions that came from elsewhere.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I really think people are putting 10 on 2 with this topic.

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

From a larger context: Any practice that breeds recognition and has done so for years across the country will be called a "tradition" by many. Not everyone will agree on that and not everyone has to.

Smaller context: If people want to use the term "tradition" then that's what they will do. My chapter had traditional programs and practices that no other organization on that campus had. I remember when another organization tried to take ALL of our ideas and formatting and rename it without even speaking to us about a collaboration. This didn't sit too well with us and the program wasn't accepted by the campus community. That's fine if folks want to adopt and adapt CERTAIN traditions. Just KNOW where you got it from and don't front like you and your organization came up with it. That also goes to NPHC traditions that came from elsewhere.

Exactly. And this just adds to the point I made earlier about the disrespect that's currently going on now among some of the non-NPHC orgs that are emulating our traditions.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

Exactly. And this just adds to the point I made earlier about the disrespect that's currently going on now among some of the non-NPHC orgs that are emulating our traditions.

I say "let it ride" unless there's a greater cultural significance beyond Greekdom that you're getting at.

In my 8 post-undergraduate years, I haven't encountered too many nonNPHCers who stroll and step. That's because I don't go to step shows that often and don't attend parties with strolling and where nonNPHCers frequent. As for calls, handsigns, and 'nalia practices, I'm generally disinterested in that issue because many nonNPHCers have put their own spin on this stuff and made these practices relevant to their organizations. Many of them also know/acknowledge where they got the basic idea from, within the Greek context, just like many NPHCers know/acknowledge where we got our ideas from.

[IncontRHOllable]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I really think people are putting 10 on 2 with this topic.

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

From a larger context: Any practice that breeds recognition and has done so for years across the country will be called a "tradition" by many. Not everyone will agree on that and not everyone has to.

Smaller context: If people want to use the term "tradition" then that's what they will do. My chapter had traditional programs and practices that no other organization on that campus had. I remember when another organization tried to take ALL of our ideas and formatting and rename it without even speaking to us about a collaboration. This didn't sit too well with us and the program wasn't accepted by the campus community. That's fine if folks want to adopt and adapt CERTAIN traditions. Just KNOW where you got it from and don't front like you and your organization came up with it. That also goes to NPHC traditions that came from elsewhere.

Whooo say it say it say it!

[brownsugar952]

I have done a little research on the subject of stepping and I have read that Phi Beta Sigma started to step first. Wouldn't the other Greek Organizations in the Divine 9 technically be copying off of the Sigmas or because you all are in the same council, it's ok to do this?

Let say by a MIRACLE another organization was able to join NPHC. Would it be ok for them to step, have calls and handsigns since the are now apart of the council?

[neosoul]

Originally Posted by brownsugar952

I have done a little research on the subject of stepping and I have read that Phi Beta Sigma started to step first. Wouldn't the other Greek Organizations in the Divine 9 technically be copying off of the Sigmas or because you all are in the same council, it's ok to do this?

Let say by a MIRACLE another organization was able to join NPHC. Would it be ok for them to step, have calls and handsigns since the are now apart of the council?

LOL @ bolded