NPHC Greeks - how do you feel about this?

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

I went to a black college so only NPHC GLOs existed on our campus. I can't speak for other GLOs but only our founding fathers created our rituals. We weren't jump started by another GLO that already existed.

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?

Personally, hearing this surprised me. I always thought NPC/IFC had done their own thing while we did ours. Now that I know this, yeah it does kind of bother me. This is a personal opinion so I hope I'm not offending any other organizations, but I think NPHC GLOs are unique in our own way. Our traditions imitate no others. I think we are often imitated but never duplicated as far as stepping, and greek clothing, and now from what I'm hearing, other GLOs calling each other sands? and now using the term crossing?

Just how unique are we? And to say our traditions imitate no other is incorrect. In fact the history of stepping did not start with BGLOs. And many of the traditions to which you refer began in the last 30 years are less--crossing jackets, hand signs, calls, etc. And as I said before even the term Sands is not universally used the same within the NPHC.

Lets not forget, we were started because we were not excepted into NPC/IFC GLOs, so in turn we started our own. African American students didn't have support groups back then. On the white campuses like IU and Cornell, black students would go weeks without seeing another black student, so with NPHC GLOs starting, they made great support groups for black students, so I don't see us actually copying anyone at all. We've done our own thing for the past 100 years and will continue to do our own thing. Basically, no I don't like to see any sororities or fraternities within the NPHC umbrella group imitated at all.

Interesting analogy since most of the NPHC orgs were founded at a HBCU. And if Black folx went for weeks at a PWI without seeing another Black student, how in the heck were they able to form a fraternity/sorority? There had to have been some kind of mechanism for them to come together.

[bejazd]

Do you think some of this could be a trend based in part on the universal appeal of hip-hop culture among young people? Sometimes I'm surprised by the music/dance/language/clothing that suburban kids of all colors enjoy today that would have made them posers when I was in high school/college. But they all seem to be okay with it...so isn't that a good thing?

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by bejazd

Do you think some of this could be a trend based in part on the universal appeal of hip-hop culture among young people? Sometimes I'm surprised by the music/dance/language/clothing that suburban kids of all colors enjoy today that would have made them posers when I was in high school/college. But they all seem to be okay with it...so isn't that a good thing?

I am confused--what does hip hop have to do with this discussion?

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I am confused--what does hip hop have to do with this discussion?

I'm not sure, but I THINK it could have been a vague reference to gang signs and hand signals being similar. I'm attempting to decipher what it meant, as well.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?


Just how unique are we? And to say our traditions imitate no other is incorrect. In fact the history of stepping did not start with BGLOs. And many of the traditions to which you refer began in the last 30 years are less--crossing jackets, hand signs, calls, etc. And as I said before even the term Sands is not universally used the same within the NPHC.


Interesting analogy since most of the NPHC orgs were founded at a HBCU. And if Black folx went for weeks at a PWI without seeing another Black student, how in the heck were they able to form a fraternity/sorority? There had to have been some kind of mechanism for them to come together.

Actually since I went to two different PWI's it's not hard at all for me to see this being the case and I'm sure that it was. One school I went to in upstate Pennsylvania (where the Black population was damn near non-existent in the early 90's and still not all that plentiful today), had a Black population so small that we all knew eachother personally, and yes we could go all day without seeing another Black person. The only reason we saw eachother some days at all is because we made it a point to meet in the cafeteria for dinner. We also became friends so we hung out in eachother's rooms and we also had a Black Student Union so that is how we were able to do things together and socialize with one another. I believe creating these kinds of groups is how our founders and others at PWI's stayed connected and later formed greek letter organizations.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?


Just how unique are we? And to say our traditions imitate no other is incorrect. In fact the history of stepping did not start with BGLOs. And many of the traditions to which you refer began in the last 30 years are less--crossing jackets, hand signs, calls, etc. And as I said before even the term Sands is not universally used the same within the NPHC.

When people say this they really need to clarify because it invalidates the role that NPHC greeks played as the creators of the art form we see and practice today as stepping. While the history of stepping can be traced to African tradition (and so can other things we do), what we have come to know as stepping in this country, what we are all practicing, what many are now imitating, did in fact begin with the NPHC orgs so let's not take away the credit that our brothers and sisters deserve in creating the artform as it exists today because that's not right or fair. And I see a lot of people these days...greek and non-greek trying to do this. So let's not do this or allow others to do it because we all know that once you allow others to take your shine, you'll never get it back.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?

The entire fraternal movement in America began with the Masons so I'm sure their influence is all over the things we all do as GLO's and BGLO's were definitely influenced by GLO's that came before them. But I think the reason why some do not like the copying that other orgs are doing regarding what we do as NPHC orgs, is because these "unique" practices that our orgs created or put a spin on have a history and a meaning behind them no matter when they started exactly. Most people who are copying don't even know or care about that history. I think this is why some people have such a problem. For some it goes really deep and they feel like they're being robbed of something, just as we have been of many things in this country, in the world. I've noticed in working with Black youth especially that we are very protective of the things we create or add uniqueness to...our style, our slang, our traditions, etc. I think this is the deeper issue for some...this is the "real" issue.

[Rudey]

I think it's something you'll see in community service organizations, music/glee clubs, honor societies although I'm sure it turns up rarely in a social fraternity.

-Rudey
--Zing

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The entire fraternal movement in America began with the Masons so I'm sure their influence is all over the things we all do as GLO's and BGLO's were definitely influenced by GLO's that came before them. But I think the reason why some do not like the copying that other orgs are doing regarding what we do as NPHC orgs, is because these "unique" practices that our orgs created or put a spin on have a history and a meaning behind them no matter when they started exactly. Most people who are copying don't even know or care about that history. I think this is why some people have such a problem. For some it goes really deep and they feel like they're being robbed of something, just as we have been of many things in this country, in the world. I've noticed in working with Black youth especially that we are very protective of the things we create or add uniqueness to...our style, our slang, our traditions, etc. I think this is the deeper issue for some...this is the "real" issue.

The only history or meanings I recognize are the ones in our offical tools. Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did. And yes I lived "stepping" being derived from dance steps, marching bands, drum and bugle corps, etc., and other precision step avenues. So yes, we may have put a spin on them, but we did not create them, not were they that unique.

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

Lastly, if there is such a deep meaning behind stepping, why are there lewd gestures included in some shows, and women pay "tributes" to frats with tongues hanging out, grit faces, copying the lewd gestures of frats, ape walking, etc.? This to me negates any deep (and assuming positive) meaning behind stepping.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did.

I know a lot of people who collect elephants. Matter of fact, my mother and I loved and collected elephants.

When I first started befriending the women who also happened be Deltas on the yard, I quickly learned that having elephants around my dorm room can be perceived the wrong way. Nothing was said to me but I could see facial expressions. I can't remember if I put them in a box or not.

Originally Posted by ladygreek

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

In all fairness, the deep meanings will vary and always be debatable. The real issue is with identifiability.

The "ooo-oop" and elephant aren't official and may've started with a certain intent (the "ooo-oop" may've been a knock off of the New York call and I've heard posthoc stories of where the elephant significance comes from) but in the GLO realm of over a decade, and as far as many Sorority officials who aren't blind to reality of changing practices, it is now closely associated with Deltas.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I know a lot of people who collect elephants. Matter of fact, my mother and I loved and collected elephants.

When I first started befriending the women who also happened be Deltas on the yard, I quickly learned that having elephants around my dorm room can be perceived the wrong way. Nothing was said to me but I could see facial expressions. I can't remember if I put them in a box or not.

In all fairness, the deep meanings will vary and always be debatable. The real issue is with identifiability.

The "ooo-oop" and elephant aren't official and may've started with a certain intent (the "ooo-oop" may've been a knock off of the New York call and I've heard posthoc stories of where the elephant significance comes from) but in the GLO realm of over a decade, and as far as many Sorority officials who aren't blind to reality of changing practices, it is now closely associated with Deltas.

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

I do know that not all the NPHC orgs officially and nationally recognize their call, handsign, mascot, etc. and I did hear that we may be the only one that does and I'm not sure about Iota Phi Theta. But for the record, Sigma Gamma Rho does in fact have an official call, handsign, and mascot that is recognized nationally and their meanings are of course made known to members.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning."

Yes.

But I really think this is a nontopic. I have never encountered a person or organization that unknowingly emulates our organizations.

The existence of PERPS through our more contemporary identifiers like handsigns and calls lets us know that there are thousands of people who recognize us by them. Whether there is a Founding purpose or not.

[L.O.C.K.]

Ladygreek...man you're so SMART!!! Hahaha, I like what you said a lot.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition? If you have a health fair for two years in a row, is it a tradition?

On one hand, I see people's points about the need to possess cultural heritage. Specifically, the Black community has been robbed countless times throughout history of its practices and traditions, so it seems natural to be protective of it. I'm sure if you reversed the roles of the last 600 years of Whites and Blacks you'd have the same want of many for protection and preservation of culture.

Yet, culture in itself is such a vague term. What constitutes it? Who can claim to have "ownership" of a certain cultural practice? In Greek terms, just adopting Greek letters is copying Phi Beta Kappa. Have secret rituals, etc. is also from them and before them the Masons. Everything is shared and mutates over time when different people adapt it to their own needs.

Like I said before, I think cultural defensiveness directly stems from how much you feel your culture has been taken from you. For example, if non-Scottish people started trying to play the bagpipes, I wouldn't be offended because inherently I feel I can have ownership of that "tradition" and "cultural" practice.

I don't know if any of my ramblings are making sense. I am trying to look at it from an academic point of view, ahaha.

As BluNYC2 said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Why do you think Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural Greeks are imitating Black Greeks? I think it comes from a need to find one's niche and establish a counter-culture that is anti-mainstream (ie White). Black Greeks have a much longer tradition of creating (and sustaining) this counter-culture. Because of this, people look to it for guidance and direction, sometimes even subconsciously.

D9 orgs have a lot of pride and history in themselves, and it is truly admirable and something people see. Now, you're seeing people measure themselves to standards of D9 orgs...Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural orgs have their measures of success based upon Black Greek orgs. 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible b/c anything that was Black or related to Black culture was considered bad by mainstream society.

Am I saying that everything is peachy now? Helllllll no. But the fact that people who aren't Black are emulating Black culture and traditions is truly intruiging on a sociological level. Is some of that imitation degrading? Yes of course (see people trying to act what they feel is "gangsta" or "ghetto"). However, when it comes to things like developing a strong presence on campus in the form of community programs, student organizational involvement, philanthropy, and alumni involvement, I personally feel that is a very good thing. Indeed, Black Greeks are the Gold Standard when it comes to that.

What I think has to happen now is that there needs to be more interraction between various Greek groups (ie NPC/NIC, NPHC, NALFO, NAPA, NMGC, etc) and beginning to develop mutual understanding and respect for each other (b/c I personally feel it doesn't exist now much outside of one's own ethnic Greek group) and share practices and ideas.

Imagine what could be done if things were shared and people had that cultural respect...man it'd be amazing.

Ok, I'm off my idealistic Soap Box now.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

The only history or meanings I recognize are the ones in our offical tools. Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did. And yes I lived "stepping" being derived from dance steps, marching bands, drum and bugle corps, etc., and other precision step avenues. So yes, we may have put a spin on them, but we did not create them, not were they that unique.

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

Believe it or not, there is a whole lot that we do as African Americans that connect us to our African heritage without us even knowing it...it's in our blood. I'm learning this more and more with each passing year that I spend married to my Ghanian husband. I also read a lot about the traditions and culture of African tribal groups...there is just so much that we do that are a reflection of Africa and I think a lot of what we do (as Black people, not only as Black greeks), we don't even know why we do this or that but some things were in fact passed down to us by our ancestors, only the stories behind them were cut off at some point and not passed down. For example, the whole idea of call and response, whether we're chanting and representing our neighborhoods, singing, or doing an NPHC call, that tradition has a history. Another example is that there are many NPHC members who will argue that the art of stepping wasn't formally taught to us, that our brothers and sisters had never actually seen African gumboot performances, but somehow we ended up creating something (pulling from various influences and artforms) that greatly resembled what our African brothers were already doing. In fact, this talk of African gumboot performances and our connection to them is only a very recent phenomenon, a conversation that most of us weren't even having when I was an undergrad in the early 90's, stepping my little heart out.