Sororities and Feminism

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by KDCat

I am a feminist. I've thought about this a lot. I don't think you can say the sorority movement is all one or the other. On the whole, though, I think the sorority movement is more feminist than not. In this case, I'm defining feminism as a movement which seeks equal opportunity for women, control over their lives and bodies equal to the control that men have, and freedom to define themselves outside of gender stereotypes.

The roots of the sorority movement are clearly feminist. The founders were doing something unusual by pursuing advanced education and they banded together to support each other.

Modern sororities are involved in lots of feminist work. They develop female leaders. They develop female friendships and female professional networks. They engage in philanthropy work that helps women. (Girl Scouts, Breast Cancer prevention, camping for girls) along with lots of philanthropies that help families and children. They also demand good grades and push their members on excelling academically, which furthers their professional careers. Programming in my chapter also furthered health awareness and professional development for sisters.

Yes -this. I also consider myself a feminist and am in a profession with very low participation of women. I have shocked a couple colleagues that didn't realize I was a "sorority chick." Many of the perception problems with sororities are a PR problem. We have often discussed that if all we promote are the beauty queens - that is all anyone is going to see. We do not advertise all the things we do.

Chapters do a lot now with leadership training and public relations, both for the chapter and the university. There is definitely networking both socially and career networking. In a chapter with good alumnae relationships, this extends into mentoring.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by als463

I do not consider myself to be one.

I'm actually pretty surprised by this, because you are ex-military, no? I'm not really sure why, but in my head, it seems like women in the military would be more likely to believe in equality of the sexes. Maybe I'm way off, though, this is just a gut reaction I haven't really thought through.

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

It's important to look at what sororites are on a national level when it comes to things like this, because I feel like this sort of cultural thing varies greatly between chapters and campuses.

Oh, agreed. I just think that most non-Greek perceptions of sororities come from big schools.

Originally Posted by adpimiz

Isn't this always true, though, not just when Greek Life is involved? I mean, I probably wouldn't go tanning for a job interview, but most women would probably wear some makeup and spend some time doing their hair.

This is true, but if you take a look at the sorority rush forum, I'd bet that better than 75% of threads are about what to wear, with about 15% on recs, and 10% on conversation, etc. (yes, I'm making these numbers up based on my perception, if anyone wants to check the math, it would be interesting). I don't think that a comparable forum on interviewing would look like that. In fact, the blog I read most often about interviewing (AAM) hardly ever touches on fashion/appearance.

Originally Posted by BAckbOwlsgIrl

Totally resenting that comment.

Not sure what you school you went to

You don't know what school I went to, but you resent a comment I made about what was SOP at my alma mater in the 1990's?

Originally Posted by HQWest

Ah well, besides the fact that feminism is not equal to promiscuous, just like many women are surprised that we recommend they clean up their Facebook pages before recruitment - that kind of behavior would be frowned on in many circles and may hamper a woman's future choice of careers (in law, medicine, or education or if they need a security clearance, for example). It begs the question about their decision making process. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find it frowned upon on my campus.

In my experience, "slut-shaming" has little to no effect on that type, but the behavior in the extreme can be a sign of other problems, and it is good to have someone to talk to about it or even counseling. (Especially if we are talking about someone just starting college as a freshman?)

I thought by feminism - the discussion was to be about advances and leadership in the workplace or education?

I'd consider feminism to be about lots of things, and I think that your point here maybe gets to the core of what I've been batting around in my head. On one hand, I think sororities do a lot for the things you mention: advances and leadership in the workplace or education.

However, I also think an important part of feminism is the elimination of violence against women and rape culture, and that's a harder assessment. So, let me see if I can sort this out:

I think there is a perception from non-Greeks that sororities contribute to rape culture. I think this is occasionally true in a very direct way, e.g. my serenades example, certain mixer themes, etc. HOWEVER, the obvious counterargument is that these types of things are probably very prevalent among non-greeks as well, on the campuses where they are most a problem. So, if your school has a "hookup culture", it has that whether you are Greek or not.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

It's also interesting that most of the stuff out there on sororities and rape culture mentions that sororities encourage promiscuity, which can be true, but in my experience, there's just as much of the opposite, as I mentioned above.

Again, I know none of this is unique to fraternities and sororities, but I am struggling with the ways in which this occurs.

[KDCat]

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

Rape culture is a problem across most college campuses. The Greek system, like many other aspects of college culture and institutions, has been formed by that culture and contributed to forming that culture. However, the Greek system also has the institutional structure in place to push back against rape culture. Our collegiate members are young, but as alumnae and alumni we can encourage our members to be aware of the culture. We can demand higher standards of behavior from our men and zero tolerance for bad behavior. We can educate our members on what rape culture is and why it needs to go.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Rape culture is a problem across most college campuses. The Greek system, like many other aspects of college culture and institutions, has been formed by that culture and contributed to forming that culture. However, the Greek system also has the institutional structure in place to push back against rape culture. Our collegiate members are young, but as alumnae and alumni we can encourage our members to be aware of the culture. We can demand higher standards of behavior from our men and zero tolerance for bad behavior. We can educate our members on what rape culture is and why it needs to go.

I agree. Are we doing that?

[33girl]

I think we need to define what rape culture is, and what responsibility is.

[als463]

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by als463

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by als463

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

Not at all the experiences I had in a more-than-20-year military career. I was the first woman in my career field, and to this day I don't think there have been more than about two dozen women in the field. I found mostly respect, and the men apparently knew that I didn't get where I was by being the "weaker sex." I earned my place, and managed to put those who didn't believe me in their proper places.

I'm not sure I'm a feminist, but I've never allowed some perception of male- or female-dominated activities to interfere with where I wanted to be. Today, I don't join organizations that restrict membership. I even debated with myself whether I was being untrue by retaining my DG membership, but DG is a part of who I am.

So, too, is the school. I would not have been a DG at some SEC school, or a big state school with huge chapters ... but neither are those the schools I would have chosen to attend. I attended a small, intensive school that had only recently eliminated its women's college, but because I never questioned my right to be there, neither did anyone else.