Sororities and Feminism

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by BAckbOwlsgIrl

Your choice of words is less than eloquent and perpetuates the stereotypes that we work so hard to eliminate here. From my experience, what you mention above is rare. Just my experience. We always let a woman lead her own personal life in the chapter that I belonged to.

LOL - I have had several seniors not in the sororities tell me that they wish they had a big sister who supported them - or who had told them they were doing something stupid when they were a freshman.

[Old_Row]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

Very interesting perspective and something that I've never thought of before.

Isn't this always true, though, not just when Greek Life is involved?

I mean, I probably wouldn't go tanning for a job interview, but most women would probably wear some makeup and spend some time doing their hair. In fact, many women do this every single day. I think this is somewhat natural. For instance, women usually have longer hair than men - which may take more time to groom. Women may have to blow dry and straighten/curl/etc their hair, when men can usually just let their hair dry because it only takes five minutes to do so.

Women, in general, spend much more time grooming themselves than men. I'm sure most men who are attending fraternity rush parties haven't gone out and gotten their nails done or spent much time contemplating their outfits. However, sorority women (especially in the SEC or other competitive schools), are usually advised to spend lots of time planning outfits, possibly getting their nails done, getting their hair cut/colored, etc.

However, this is an everyday occurrence. Women, in general, are going to spend much more time getting ready for a date than men. And I think that it is somewhat of an equality issue. For me, personally, I grew up on a farm. Before I prepared for sorority recruitment, I didn't even know what a "cocktail" dress was when I was looking for something to wear on pref day. I'd love to throw my hair up in a ponytail, have no makeup on, wear jeans and a t shirt and show my true personality. However, I can't do that if I want to be judged on the same level as the girls who are decked out in Lily Pulitzer dresses and spent two hours on their hair. Men don't have to work nearly as hard to be on the same level as other men.

I know!!! I love looking good and spend a lot of time on my appearance every day. I was that way before I ever joined and would be that way even if I were not in a sorority. It makes me feel good to look good.

Originally Posted by HQWest

LOL - I have had several seniors not in the sororities tell me that they wish they had a big sister who supported them - or who had told them they were doing something stupid when they were a freshman.

Haha. I think a lot of girls can benefit from having someone tell them to watch out for things. There are so many new experiences and men who will prey on vulnerable freshmen and a girl can get really messed up before she knows it if she doesn't have good friends to help her out. I think it's more like having some guardian angels who have common interests and goals and want to watch out for you and your feelings so you don't get hurt.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Both a male and female PNM are expected, for example, to dress appropriately and be clean and well-groomed. But only the female PNM is expected to wear make-up, go tanning, etc.

Don't even kid yourself. LOTS of my guy friends are just as scrupulous with their tanning and workouts as any girl is with makeup. There is much, much, MUCH more pressure on men these days to maintain their appearances than there used to be.

Originally Posted by Old_Row

Haha. I think a lot of girls can benefit from having someone tell them to watch out for things. There are so many new experiences and men who will prey on vulnerable freshmen and a girl can get really messed up before she knows it if she doesn't have good friends to help her out. I think it's more like having some guardian angels who have common interests and goals and want to watch out for you and your feelings so you don't get hurt.

DBB is not talking about a super naive freshman who just fell off the turnip truck and hasn't done anything below the waist who believes the guy when he says he just wants to go back to his room "to talk." We're talking about women who like sex, who find it physically and mentally pleasurable, and who don't feel they need to be pinned or someone's "girlfriend" to enjoy it. Some women can sleep with 100 guys and be the most mentally happy and stable girl out there. Some women can sleep with one guy and be completely f'ed up. Different strokes for different folks.

Some chapters are open minded about this, but some are not, and some are selective about it. In other words, if you sleep with a bunch of fraternity guys that's OK, but if you sleep with townies you're a whore and get your pin pulled.

[HQWest]

Ah well, besides the fact that feminism is not equal to promiscuous, just like many women are surprised that we recommend they clean up their Facebook pages before recruitment - that kind of behavior would be frowned on in many circles and may hamper a woman's future choice of careers (in law, medicine, or education or if they need a security clearance, for example). It begs the question about their decision making process. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find it frowned upon on my campus.

In my experience, "slut-shaming" has little to no effect on that type, but the behavior in the extreme can be a sign of other problems, and it is good to have someone to talk to about it or even counseling. (Especially if we are talking about someone just starting college as a freshman?)

I thought by feminism - the discussion was to be about advances and leadership in the workplace or education?

[KDCat]

I am a feminist. I've thought about this a lot. I don't think you can say the sorority movement is all one or the other. On the whole, though, I think the sorority movement is more feminist than not. In this case, I'm defining feminism as a movement which seeks equal opportunity for women, control over their lives and bodies equal to the control that men have, and freedom to define themselves outside of gender stereotypes.

The roots of the sorority movement are clearly feminist. The founders were doing something unusual by pursuing advanced education and they banded together to support each other.

Modern sororities are involved in lots of feminist work. They develop female leaders. They develop female friendships and female professional networks. They engage in philanthropy work that helps women. (Girl Scouts, Breast Cancer prevention, camping for girls) along with lots of philanthropies that help families and children. They also demand good grades and push their members on excelling academically, which furthers their professional careers. Programming in my chapter also furthered health awareness and professional development for sisters.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by KDCat

I am a feminist. I've thought about this a lot. I don't think you can say the sorority movement is all one or the other. On the whole, though, I think the sorority movement is more feminist than not. In this case, I'm defining feminism as a movement which seeks equal opportunity for women, control over their lives and bodies equal to the control that men have, and freedom to define themselves outside of gender stereotypes.

The roots of the sorority movement are clearly feminist. The founders were doing something unusual by pursuing advanced education and they banded together to support each other.

Modern sororities are involved in lots of feminist work. They develop female leaders. They develop female friendships and female professional networks. They engage in philanthropy work that helps women. (Girl Scouts, Breast Cancer prevention, camping for girls) along with lots of philanthropies that help families and children. They also demand good grades and push their members on excelling academically, which furthers their professional careers. Programming in my chapter also furthered health awareness and professional development for sisters.

Yes -this. I also consider myself a feminist and am in a profession with very low participation of women. I have shocked a couple colleagues that didn't realize I was a "sorority chick." Many of the perception problems with sororities are a PR problem. We have often discussed that if all we promote are the beauty queens - that is all anyone is going to see. We do not advertise all the things we do.

Chapters do a lot now with leadership training and public relations, both for the chapter and the university. There is definitely networking both socially and career networking. In a chapter with good alumnae relationships, this extends into mentoring.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by als463

I do not consider myself to be one.

I'm actually pretty surprised by this, because you are ex-military, no? I'm not really sure why, but in my head, it seems like women in the military would be more likely to believe in equality of the sexes. Maybe I'm way off, though, this is just a gut reaction I haven't really thought through.

Originally Posted by justgo_withit

It's important to look at what sororites are on a national level when it comes to things like this, because I feel like this sort of cultural thing varies greatly between chapters and campuses.

Oh, agreed. I just think that most non-Greek perceptions of sororities come from big schools.

Originally Posted by adpimiz

Isn't this always true, though, not just when Greek Life is involved? I mean, I probably wouldn't go tanning for a job interview, but most women would probably wear some makeup and spend some time doing their hair.

This is true, but if you take a look at the sorority rush forum, I'd bet that better than 75% of threads are about what to wear, with about 15% on recs, and 10% on conversation, etc. (yes, I'm making these numbers up based on my perception, if anyone wants to check the math, it would be interesting). I don't think that a comparable forum on interviewing would look like that. In fact, the blog I read most often about interviewing (AAM) hardly ever touches on fashion/appearance.

Originally Posted by BAckbOwlsgIrl

Totally resenting that comment.

Not sure what you school you went to

You don't know what school I went to, but you resent a comment I made about what was SOP at my alma mater in the 1990's?

Originally Posted by HQWest

Ah well, besides the fact that feminism is not equal to promiscuous, just like many women are surprised that we recommend they clean up their Facebook pages before recruitment - that kind of behavior would be frowned on in many circles and may hamper a woman's future choice of careers (in law, medicine, or education or if they need a security clearance, for example). It begs the question about their decision making process. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find it frowned upon on my campus.

In my experience, "slut-shaming" has little to no effect on that type, but the behavior in the extreme can be a sign of other problems, and it is good to have someone to talk to about it or even counseling. (Especially if we are talking about someone just starting college as a freshman?)

I thought by feminism - the discussion was to be about advances and leadership in the workplace or education?

I'd consider feminism to be about lots of things, and I think that your point here maybe gets to the core of what I've been batting around in my head. On one hand, I think sororities do a lot for the things you mention: advances and leadership in the workplace or education.

However, I also think an important part of feminism is the elimination of violence against women and rape culture, and that's a harder assessment. So, let me see if I can sort this out:

I think there is a perception from non-Greeks that sororities contribute to rape culture. I think this is occasionally true in a very direct way, e.g. my serenades example, certain mixer themes, etc. HOWEVER, the obvious counterargument is that these types of things are probably very prevalent among non-greeks as well, on the campuses where they are most a problem. So, if your school has a "hookup culture", it has that whether you are Greek or not.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

It's also interesting that most of the stuff out there on sororities and rape culture mentions that sororities encourage promiscuity, which can be true, but in my experience, there's just as much of the opposite, as I mentioned above.

Again, I know none of this is unique to fraternities and sororities, but I am struggling with the ways in which this occurs.