living together before marriage: opinions?

[RoxyGrrrl]

I think this whole deal about "statistics" proving people who live together before getting married makes them more likely to divorce is right up there with people believing that more people have pre-marital sex now than they did 50 years ago. A recent, very well conducted survey of people aged 12-90-ish proved that more than 80% of people had pre-marital sex. We want to think that being virgins until marriage is the way things are supposed to be, but it's a fantasy. Now no one jump down my throat, I know there are people who do this, but they are a minority.

I normally just lurk here, but this has been such an interesting discussion on both sides I felt I had to jump in. Sorry for the length.

AOII Angel, I too am dubious about these "statistics." Firstly do these studies actually exist and if so, what was the methodology? Secondly, if these stories are true, I suspect these cases are couples who were already having problems in the first place and thought getting married would solve their issues, rather than exacerbate them. Or, as others have mentioned, they felt pressured into it and weren't ready.

I can totally understand people that don't want to live with someone until a ring is on that finger. I think for the most part, if getting married is your goal, then waiting until you're engaged might be a good policy to follow.

For me however, I have been living with someone for 12 years now. Most people don't know we're not officially married as we own two homes, wear rings, and refer to each other as husband and wife. At one point I contemplated leaving him (not because of not being married) and no, it wouldn't have been as simple as packing a bag and physically leaving.

Why aren't we married by now? I don't know, it doesn't seem necessary. It wouldn't make us any more committed than we already are. I never saw myself as the kind that would flout convention, but here I am. When we started living together we weren't sure if our paths were going to come together because we were both trying to establish our careers. We realized we had to make a few sacrifices if we were going to make it work. So we did and we're still together.

I'm almost through with school and I'll finally be Dr. Roxygrrrl and I am contemplating hyphenating my name because he's been there every step of the way and cheered me on even when I was ready to quit. The reason I say all this is because if I had been single all these years I probably would've become Dr. Roxygrrl sooner, so it's not like living together for us is some carefree existence where you still live like you're single. We are truly partnered. As I said earlier, to make it work this long we had to make a few sacrifices along the way or we wouldn't still be together.


We still don't rule marriage out, but really, at this point it would just be a piece of paper. We also think about having a commitment ceremony because we've made it this far and it would be nice to celebrate that with our family and friends. I just have to feel some overwhelming urge that I must be married before I'd do it. I just don't know what it can do for us at this point that we don't already have. We're happy.

I do however, think my situation is pretty anamolous, at least relatively speaking, so I don't pretend it's the answer. If getting married is something you know you want, you shouldn't settle for anything less.

Sorry this was so long.

[33girl]

As far as the pre-marital sex statistic, I completely believe that people were having it just as much 50 years ago...the difference between comparing that and living together/marriage is that, well, people really can't lie about marriage - it's a matter of public record. Whether or not you had sex is not (unless you're Paris Hilton). I guess there are people out there who would lie on a survey about living together, but I don't think as many.

Maybe I have trust issues, but having seen so many friends get screwed over emotionally and monetarily, I can't imagine giving someone the power to do that sort of thing with no legal consequences, and if you move in with someone and make all sorts of rules and barriers to avoid that, I can't see where that would be fulfilling, either.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Maybe I have trust issues, but having seen so many friends get screwed over emotionally and monetarily, I can't imagine giving someone the power to do that sort of thing with no legal consequences, and if you move in with someone and make all sorts of rules and barriers to avoid that, I can't see where that would be fulfilling, either.

I agree.

Why make rules with little legal backing? And why take it all so seriously to formalize rules but not take it seriously enough to make it legal?

I can see people who think marriage is only a piece of paper. But people who take marriage seriously as a spiritual union and/or legal institution should stop "playing house" rather sooner than later.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You have to "intend" to be married.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The factors are very different from state to state.

Kevin, is right -- the laws vary from state to state. Even the Wiki, which you quoted doesn't seem to disagree:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Indeed but from here Wiki
Intent to be married, considering each other husband and wife, mutual agreement to the marriage, and/or representing yourself as husband and wife to others are in every set of standards.

In some states the operative question (again set forth in the Wiki) is whether you have held yourself out as husband and wife, with the apparent presumption that you would not do so absent intent.

Now, going back to the post Kevin was responding to:

Originally Posted by RoxyGrrrl

For me however, I have been living with someone for 12 years now. Most people don't know we're not officially married as we own two homes, wear rings, and refer to each other as husband and wife. At one point I contemplated leaving him (not because of not being married) and no, it wouldn't have been as simple as packing a bag and physically leaving.

There, in the bolded part, we appear to have "representing yourself to others as husband and wife." So, Kevin is right (family law class or not) -- in some states, RoxyGrrrl and her "husband" may have created a common law marriage.

The reality is that, other than with issues at places like hospitals, this often isn't really an issue unless (1) the couple separates or (2) one of them dies. For example, lets say RoxyGrrrl (sorry, RoxyGrrrl, to use you as the example) do live where common law marriages can be formed by holding yourself out as husband and wife for 7 years and stay together for 10 years after she becomes Dr. RoxyGrrrl, but then she decided she wants out. Her boyfriend might decide to counter with "we're married, so I want my share of what Dr. RoxyGrrrl has accumulated for us during our marriage." Hello, court fight.

Originally Posted by RoxyGrrrl

We are actually recognized by a court of law as being legally married, so it's a common law thing. It does vary state to state though.

I wondered since you also said that most people don't know that you're not "officially married." But thanks for settling it.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by RoxyGrrrl

For me however, I have been living with someone for 12 years now. Most people don't know we're not officially married as we own two homes, wear rings, and refer to each other as husband and wife. At one point I contemplated leaving him (not because of not being married) and no, it wouldn't have been as simple as packing a bag and physically leaving.

Why aren't we married by now? I don't know, it doesn't seem necessary. It wouldn't make us any more committed than we already are. I never saw myself as the kind that would flout convention, but here I am. When we started living together we weren't sure if our paths were going to come together because we were both trying to establish our careers. We realized we had to make a few sacrifices if we were going to make it work. So we did and we're still together.

I'm almost through with school and I'll finally be Dr. Roxygrrrl and I am contemplating hyphenating my name because he's been there every step of the way and cheered me on even when I was ready to quit. The reason I say all this is because if I had been single all these years I probably would've become Dr. Roxygrrl sooner, so it's not like living together for us is some carefree existence where you still live like you're single. We are truly partnered. As I said earlier, to make it work this long we had to make a few sacrifices along the way or we wouldn't still be together.


We still don't rule marriage out, but really, at this point it would just be a piece of paper. We also think about having a commitment ceremony because we've made it this far and it would be nice to celebrate that with our family and friends. I just have to feel some overwhelming urge that I must be married before I'd do it. I just don't know what it can do for us at this point that we don't already have. We're happy.

I do however, think my situation is pretty anamolous, at least relatively speaking, so I don't pretend it's the answer. If getting married is something you know you want, you shouldn't settle for anything less.

Sorry this was so long.

And as far as I and many other people are concerned, your relationship is a "failure" and one of the reasons why cohabitation is a bad idea.

Sure, it works for you and thousands of other people. But the average cohabitating couple that's lasted for 12 or more years, which is too damn long for ME to be in ANY type of relationship without being married, comes out of it with more than a "Dr." title and thinking about hyphenating the name IF they get married.

A great percentage of cohabitating people who have been together even 2 years come out of it having an out of wedlock child, hoping they will get married one day, and wishing they had some paperwork to show for all the "playing house" they did when it's all said and done.

[Marie]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

And as far as I and many other people are concerned, your relationship is a "failure" and one of the reasons why cohabitation is a bad idea.

Sure, it works for you and thousands of other people. But the average cohabitating couple that's lasted for 12 or more years, which is too damn long for ME to be in ANY type of relationship without being married, comes out of it with more than a "Dr." title and thinking about hyphenating the name IF they get married.

A great percentage of cohabitating people who have been together even 2 years come out of it having an out of wedlock child, hoping they will get married one day, and wishing they had some paperwork to show for all the "playing house" they did when it's all said and done.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RoxyGrrrl

I normally just lurk here, but this has been such an interesting discussion on both sides I felt I had to jump in. Sorry for the length.

AOII Angel, I too am dubious about these "statistics." Firstly do these studies actually exist and if so, what was the methodology? Secondly, if these stories are true, I suspect these cases are couples who were already having problems in the first place and thought getting married would solve their issues, rather than exacerbate them. Or, as others have mentioned, they felt pressured into it and weren't ready.

I can totally understand people that don't want to live with someone until a ring is on that finger. I think for the most part, if getting married is your goal, then waiting until you're engaged might be a good policy to follow.

For me however, I have been living with someone for 12 years now. Most people don't know we're not officially married as we own two homes, wear rings, and refer to each other as husband and wife. At one point I contemplated leaving him (not because of not being married) and no, it wouldn't have been as simple as packing a bag and physically leaving.

Why aren't we married by now? I don't know, it doesn't seem necessary. It wouldn't make us any more committed than we already are. I never saw myself as the kind that would flout convention, but here I am. When we started living together we weren't sure if our paths were going to come together because we were both trying to establish our careers. We realized we had to make a few sacrifices if we were going to make it work. So we did and we're still together.

I'm almost through with school and I'll finally be Dr. Roxygrrrl and I am contemplating hyphenating my name because he's been there every step of the way and cheered me on even when I was ready to quit. The reason I say all this is because if I had been single all these years I probably would've become Dr. Roxygrrl sooner, so it's not like living together for us is some carefree existence where you still live like you're single. We are truly partnered. As I said earlier, to make it work this long we had to make a few sacrifices along the way or we wouldn't still be together.


We still don't rule marriage out, but really, at this point it would just be a piece of paper. We also think about having a commitment ceremony because we've made it this far and it would be nice to celebrate that with our family and friends. I just have to feel some overwhelming urge that I must be married before I'd do it. I just don't know what it can do for us at this point that we don't already have. We're happy.

I do however, think my situation is pretty anamolous, at least relatively speaking, so I don't pretend it's the answer. If getting married is something you know you want, you shouldn't settle for anything less.

Sorry this was so long.

Roxygrrl, in some states, it seems to me that you've met all of the requirements of common law marriage. Depending on where you live, you might just be married. (Colorado, Washington D.C., Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Texas, South Carolina or Utah)

The trouble with folks like you is this: What happens if you do decide to go your separate ways? Being married carries with it all sorts of protections in divorce. You don't have those sorts of protections if you're just dissolving a partnership. Also -- if one of you dies and doesn't have a will, what happens then?

Marriage, legally speaking, is a very simple, usually inexpensive way to tie up a lot of legal loose ends which couples face. It's not just something to show commitment, but an easy way to provide some strong legal protection to your marriage.

(necessary law student disclaimer: this is not to be read as legal advice, it's just my opinion, if you want real legal advice, go to a real lawyer who is licensed to practice in your state).

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Roxygrrl, in some states, it seems to me that you've met all of the requirements of common law marriage. Depending on where you live, you might just be married. (Colorado, Washington D.C., Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Texas, South Carolina or Utah)

The trouble with folks like you is this: What happens if you do decide to go your separate ways? Being married carries with it all sorts of protections in divorce. You don't have those sorts of protections if you're just dissolving a partnership. Also -- if one of you dies and doesn't have a will, what happens then?

In those states, do you need to declare yourself married to be common law married? I hope that makes sense. We used to have it in PA, but we don't anymore (unless you're grandfathered in).

And this is off topic, but partnered or not, married or not, EVERYONE should have a will.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by 33girl

In those states, do you need to declare yourself married to be common law married? I hope that makes sense. We used to have it in PA, but we don't anymore (unless you're grandfathered in).

And this is off topic, but partnered or not, married or not, EVERYONE should have a will.

I thought some states just had a time limit, like 7 years of cohabitation, that was automatically a common law marriage. I didn't think that required declaring that you're married or even knowing that your cohabitation was covered under the law.

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I thought some states just had a time limit, like 7 years of cohabitation, that was automatically a common law marriage. I didn't think that required declaring that you're married or even knowing that your cohabitation was covered under the law.

You are correct. In some states it's 5 years, in others its 7 years. In other states, at one time it could be contracted, but can no longer be. Several states have never permitted common-law marriage: Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Louisiana, Maryland, NC, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington West Va and Wyoming..

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

In those states, do you need to declare yourself married to be common law married? I hope that makes sense. We used to have it in PA, but we don't anymore (unless you're grandfathered in).

And this is off topic, but partnered or not, married or not, EVERYONE should have a will.

You have to "intend" to be married. It's not just living with someone for 5-7 years, it's the intent behind it.

<-Took a family law class and it came in handy.. whooo!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You have to "intend" to be married. It's not just living with someone for 5-7 years, it's the intent behind it.

<-Took a family law class and it came in handy.. whooo!

The factors are very different from state to state.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The trouble with folks like you is this: What happens if you do decide to go your separate ways? Being married carries with it all sorts of protections in divorce. You don't have those sorts of protections if you're just dissolving a partnership. Also -- if one of you dies and doesn't have a will, what happens then?

This is my major issue with cohabitation (and the reason I am for gay civil unions), and something that made me get out of my relationship as soon as I realized that I didn't want to get married to him. We were on great terms--and still are--but there was no way I was going to stay in a relationship out of inertia, because I would probably be the one left out in the cold financially in a split.

Also, what happens when one person gets really sick? Without anything listing you as a next of kin or giving you power of attorney, you're SOL. As good as you "think" you are with your SO's family, people show their asses when there's a crisis.

[APhi Sailorgirl]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Also, what happens when one person gets really sick? Without anything listing you as a next of kin or giving you power of attorney, you're SOL. As good as you "think" you are with your SO's family, people show their asses when there's a crisis.

This was something that was brought up when we thought my fiance was going to have neck surgery. I told him that he should probably have his mom or dad present for the surgery in case something went wrong. I would have no say in the matter since we aren't married yet.

Although speaking about assets within the "household" the neighbors of friends initially only lived together because it was financially easier. They actually would mark stuff like furniture with one or the other's name just in case. They even kept it up after marriage for a bit. But they have been happily married for years with grown children now. But at the time it was a system they figured would work.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

This is my major issue with cohabitation (and the reason I am for gay civil unions), and something that made me get out of my relationship as soon as I realized that I didn't want to get married to him. We were on great terms--and still are--but there was no way I was going to stay in a relationship out of inertia, because I would probably be the one left out in the cold financially in a split.

Also, what happens when one person gets really sick? Without anything listing you as a next of kin or giving you power of attorney, you're SOL. As good as you "think" you are with your SO's family, people show their asses when there's a crisis.

I agree with all of that.

Some people seem to think marriage is passé now, apparently. As passé as it is, however, the protections which come with it should still prove to be extremely relevant. For all the bullcrap that goes along with getting POAs written up, making sure wills are in order, owning everything in a corporate partnership, etc., marriage is a hell of a lot easier.

Also, if you're afraid of what happens in a divorce, see lawyers, get prenupital agreements written up. I very much believe in marriage for life, etc., (I'm old fashioned like that), but I still have a prenup, because sh%% happens.