"The Dreaded Phone Call"

[UGAalum94]

jwright25,

It stinks that they acted that way. Honestly, the organization should make it clear that that junk won't be tolerated. You're performing a service for the organization, and they need to act right.

On a different note, I wonder if you have any kids?

I'm not suggesting that not having kids invalidates someone's opinions about legacies, but I usually see a different attitude in people who face the realistic possibility of it happening to their kids, who as far as they know, seem well qualified.

I don't think that chapters should ever take a risk on a legacy when they have far better candidates. By risk, I mean bad grades, questionable reputation, whatever.

But when the legacies are as "good" as the other PNMs you put on your bid list, by whatever standard you are using, I think it's fine that they get priority.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

It stinks that they acted that way. Honestly, the organization should make it clear that that junk won't be tolerated. You're performing a service for the organization, and they need to act right.

Every summer there is a wonderful article in our magazine that outlines the legacy policy. While I don't recall whether or not it states that there won't be phone calls, I did do some further research and determined that it is a general policy that we are NOT to call. The reasoning behind it is that it is the PNM's decision whether or not to share her experience.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

On a different note, I wonder if you have any kids?

I don't. And I had a feeling that it would come up. Not specifically from you. Just in general. Because I considered that myself. I had to think about how one day I might have a daughter in this situation. While I absolutely cannot predict how I will feel when I do have kids, I do think about it a lot and what kind of parent I would be. I know that without a doubt I would be available to my daughter to talk if she was released, but I just don't think that I am entitled to know about it before she does.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I'm not suggesting that not having kids invalidates someone's opinions about legacies, but I usually see a different attitude in people who face the realistic possibility of it happening to their kids, who as far as they know, seem well qualified.

But if I am not allowed to know why she was released, why would it matter how well qualified she is or isn't? Being told she is released is different from being told why. I think we've all agreed that the alumna on the receiving end of a call should simply say "Thank You" and end the conversation. We'll still love our daughters and think that they are well qualified. Just not a match for that particular chapter of our sorority.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I don't think that chapters should ever take a risk on a legacy when they have far better candidates. By risk, I mean bad grades, questionable reputation, whatever.

But when the legacies are as "good" as the other PNMs you put on your bid list, by whatever standard you are using, I think it's fine that they get priority.

There were no obvious risks with the two legacies that I mentioned above as having been cancelled after one semester. They had good enough grades to make the grade cut, good standards, etc. They weren't very involved in high school, and we knew that there was some outside pressure from the alumnae to get them to go through. There were women with higher GPAs, many more activities, and - frankly - better personalities who did not get a bid. Those women most likely would still be involved.

I don't think we should change our policy because of this, and we are treading away from the "to call or not to call" discussion and more into a general discussion of legacy policy. But that's my fault for bringing it up.

[UGAalum94]

What group are you in? I was just wondering for the tally.

I just wanted to clarify that the my comment about "seeming well qualified" was intended to go with idea of giving some preference to legacies, rather than expecting phone calls that would explain why she wasn't.

I think most people who favor preferential treatment for legacies don't want to see them get in no matter what, but they want it to be the deciding factor when everything else is equal. So moms with PNM who are as well qualified as other PNMs hope that the policy just gives a little edge.

If an organization is interested in legacies to build a multi-generation attachment to an organization, I think it's cool, but I think people who see it playing out for their kids are more interested in it than undergraduates who just want to pick based on "fit." Is it more superficial and selfish to want your kid to get a little special treatment or more superficial and selfish to pick a girl because she's just like you?

(Again, I know my feelings on the matter don't count for much, but I can embrace not calling because it's not practical and it doesn't really work as far as offering respect to the alumna. I just can't make myself buy in that it's really a privacy issue for the PNM. If the mom or even just a rec writer called the chapter the day of parties to see if the PNM had been invited back, you really wouldn't tell her? Or is it that you feel the guest should know first?)

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

What group are you in? I was just wondering for the tally.

Alpha Delta Pi

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I just wanted to clarify that the my comment about "seeming well qualified" was intended to go with idea of giving some preference to legacies, rather than expecting phone calls that would explain why she wasn't.

Gotcha. I agree.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I think most people who favor preferential treatment for legacies don't want to see them get in no matter what, but they want it to be the deciding factor when everything else is equal. So moms with PNM who are as well qualified as other PNMs hope that the policy just gives a little edge.

I absolutely agree. When everything else is absolutely equal, I think the legacy should get the advantage.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

If an organization is interested in legacies to build a multi-generation attachment to an organization, I think it's cool, but I think people who see it playing out for their kids are more interested in it than undergraduates who just want to pick based on "fit." Is it more superficial and selfish to want your kid to get a little special treatment or more superficial and selfish to pick a girl because she's just like you?

Mmmmm. I think it can go both ways. I do think it is superficial and selfish to demand that my kid get special treatment. Again - if she is not judged on her own merits, we are doing her a disservice and setting her up to always expect special treatment because of who her parents are. And as to the undergraduate's perspective - isn't recruitment about picking who will be an asset to your chapter? Sometimes that means picking girls who are just like you. We are often taught that in recruitment, you need to "replace yourself" and to replace the seniors who have graduated. I'm not advocating throwing diversity out the door - but even when searching for diverse new members, you want to make sure that she will be comfortable in the setting of the sorority and not be a complete outcast.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

(Again, I know my feelings on the matter don't count for much, but I can embrace not calling because it's not practical and it doesn't really work as far as offering respect to the alumna.

But I think your feelings DO count for much. I think we should consider all sides to the matter, and I love discussing them. I love hearing other opinions, and it has happened that my own feelings have changed as a result of hearing an argument that I hadn't before considered.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I just can't make myself buy in that it's really a privacy issue for the PNM. If the mom or even just a rec writer called the chapter the day of parties to see if the PNM had been invited back, you really wouldn't tell her? Or is it that you feel the guest should know first?)

I feel that the guest should know first. And I guess that I just feel that a PNM's business is a PNM's business. If SHE wants to tell the whole world who she cut and who cut her - fine. But she may be embarrassed, or she may wish to spin it to her family member or rec writer that SHE was the one doing the cutting to save some face. It's not my place to embarrass her further by saying, "No, sorry. We don't want her."

[UGAalum94]

Thanks for being so kind.

When I was explaining that my feelings on the topic didn't matter, it was in acknowledgment of my having been annoying with my incessant questioning in another thread. I would expect my opinions to matter to my own group some, but when I question other people's policies, I just want to be clear that I understand my lack of status and that it's purely theoretical. I am sincerely interested and honestly thinking about what policy would be ideal, but I don't want anyone to think I believe I know more about what policies their group's should have than they do or that I expect my feelings to matter to them.

So much of the authenticity of MS standards really does depend on the chapter, especially the undergraduate leadership, too. (Are you choosing this PNM because she really is a great girl or because her brother or boyfriend is in a fraternity that you want to have more socials with? Both things help the group, but to me, one seems more legitimate than the other. If you are chapter that does consider her connections on campus, consider her connections at home as well, is all I'd say.)

I do appreciate your kind words about alums sincerely.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

So much of the authenticity of MS standards really does depend on the chapter, especially the undergraduate leadership, too. (Are you choosing this PNM because she really is a great girl or because her brother or boyfriend is in a fraternity that you want to have more socials with? Both things help the group, but to me, one seems more legitimate than the other. If you are chapter that does consider her connections on campus, consider her connections at home as well, is all I'd say.)

This was similar to my earlier point. We all want girls who will be involved in the chapter and on campus, who will get good grades, who won't do anything embarrassing, and who will treat other sisters with respect and kindness.

When undergraduate women on either side of a large competitive rush talk about a poor "fit", IMO, they are generally referring to either appearance or sociability. This is true of both the chapter's view of a rushee and a rushee's view of the chapter. Unfortunately, a lot of decisions are made on the basis of "fit", which is really a meaningless concept. Some of you will say there may be a sporty house, or a studious house, or whatever, but I honestly do not think that is the case in chapters with over 100 women; they have women of all types.

So my point is not that you should choose a legacy over someone who honestly better meets the objective criteria for membership. It is that you should consider legacy status to be more important than some of the subjective stuff which really doesn't tell you much about how good a member the woman will turn out to be.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

So my point is not that you should choose a legacy over someone who honestly better meets the objective criteria for membership. It is that you should consider legacy status to be more important than some of the subjective stuff which really doesn't tell you much about how good a member the woman will turn out to be.

I don't think legacy status tells you how good a member a woman will turn out to be either...see honeychile's story. And even if the legacy is someone who wants to pledge, there's no guarantee she won't turn out to be a giant waste of space. I realize there are a lot more "just members" in large chapters - women who never hold office or do anything more than the minimum - but if you keep pledging legacies just because they're legacies, and don't take into account things you take into account w/ other rushees (like personality or grades or involvement) eventually you might end up with a whole chapter full of 100 "just members" and no one with leadership qualities.

Please don't think I'm saying all legacies are like this - far from it - but the thing is, I think I would hate to be chosen for something just because of who my mother or sister was, if someone didn't really want me or I didn't measure up.

[Zillini]

As jwright25 said, every year ADPi publishes that alums won't be getting a phone call. We used to but the policy was changed several years back. From what I've been told and it may or may not be accurate, the primary reason for the change was that on so many campuses the number of legacies going through Recruitment was huge. There just isn't time.

For example, as I recall last year at one SEC school there was 1 1/2 times quota of legacies going through. My memory is hazy but quota was somewhere around 80, so that would mean about 120 legacies. Invite lists are typically due at about 5am. Even if MS sessions end by say 2am, the Recruitment Team still needs to generate the actual list to submit to Panhellenic and that takes time. The invites are then distributed to the pnm's at around 8am. It's impossible to make all those calls for the simple reason that the actives and advisors are busy with the next round of Recruitment. Or maybe trying to get some sleep. Once Recruitment is finished we send out letters telling an alum where their legacy ended up.

As a parent I can understand the anger and frustration of not receiving a phone call, but as an advisor I appreciate not having to make those calls. They rarely go well. Each year I still field numerous calls from angry alums. They demand to know why and I can't tell them. I've heard threats to turn in their pin and/or quit contributing money. Some even call HQ or the University to file complaints.

We don't release legacies frivolously, but we do release them. Sometimes we have to because of the sheer numbers of legacies going through. I feel horrible for all the mothers, sisters, grandmothers out there when that happens. But please ladies know that being a legacy no longer means a guaranteed bid. Those times are long gone.

Allow me a moment to vent with one last comment to alums, please find out what the minimum GPA is for the Chapter in question is before calling up to complain. If it's 3.0 or higher and your legacy has a 2.5, please don't call. You and more importantly she should have been thinking about this back in HS. Being a legacy doesn't compensate for poor grades.