"The Dreaded Phone Call"

[UGAalum94]

SoCalGirl,

I think that maybe the legacy introduction forms could ask about type of notification the alumna would prefer. That would also remind her than she can't expect the PNM to get a bid just because she was member.

It should be regarded as a courtesy by the alumna too, and she shouldn't make it a more unpleasant than it has to be. There are very few objective aspects to MS, and she's never going to get a truly satisfying explanation, so everyone should recognize that's not what the call is about. It's a courtesy; it spares the PNM from having to break the news if it is a case where she is going to feel that she let the member down, but it's not an extension of MS.

I got myself into an unpleasant situation in another thread asking about Gamma Phi's policy, but I really do think there are reasons why other GLOs should consider moving towards it. First among them is the idea that many chapters don't seem to be honoring it anyway. And that's a double whammy. The alumna thinks no call is good news; the pnm gets cut. The alumna may be disappointed she got cut, but even if she wasn't concerned about the cut, she's probably kind of miffed that the GLO policy wasn't followed. (And if the PNM really wanted the chapter, the alumna is now upset about two things: her legacy's hurt feelings, and the chapter's cavalier attitude about GLO policy.)

[33girl]

I think sorority members should be notified if their legacy is dropped. The question is WHEN.

My mom wasn't in a sorority, but I thought, what if she had been and been grooming me to pledge that group for 18 years - and they dropped me the second day? Everyone's mom is different, but I have the feeling I would have been so busy consoling my mom that life would go on that the 6 other invites I got wouldn't have meant jack to me. Or to her. I would probably drop out of rush rather than have to deal with that and miss what could have been a great experience.

Then of course, you have another side of the coin - the rushee can't stand the legacy chapter and doesn't want to disappoint her mom by telling her "hey Mom, these girls are total jerks" and instead of telling her mom she cut them, tells Mom the sorority dropped her.

It seems like parents have so much more invested in their kids nowadays - emotionally and $wise and timewise - that the thought of having to tell them anything negative is enough to cast a pall on all of rush week.

[jwright25]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opinions on this issue, because it is one that I have had to deal with and am sure to deal with many times again. My organization does not have a policy requiring chapters to call or send a letter or anything. And I like it that way. I am not a fan of the phone call, for several reasons:

1. As stated earlier in the thread, the PNM is an adult. The decision to participate in recruitment was hers to make alone, and she can legally do it without parental consent. Additionally, some PNMs might not want to admit that they have been released and would prefer to say or act like the decision was hers. That's her business. Not Mom's. There are privacy laws preventing Universities from divulging information to parents. Even though our sororities do not receive federal funds and are not always subject to the same laws, perhaps we should consider them as a guideline.

2. Even though several of you have commented that it SHOULD be this way, it will be the very rare phone call that Mom says, "OKTHXBYE." More likely the advisor or President will get questions about "why" and questions about whether or not it can be reversed and threats to call Executive Office. Stress that they don't need during recruitment. Questions that they can't answer because they are about MS.

3. While I believe that alumnae are necessary and valuable assets to our organizations (I'm one), I do not believe that they are entitled to know privileged membership selection information. Who is invited to parties or who is not is privileged membership selection information.

4. The educated alumna will not only encourage her daughter to make her own decisions and join the sorority that is right for her, she will also understand that perhaps her daughter is not right for her sorority. There is a reason that our organizations (well, mine at least) do not allow alumnae to participate in membership selection. Mine does not even allow alumnae to ATTEND MS unless they are an advisor or international officer. Alumnae have the privilege of recommending members, but they do not have the privilege of selecting them. So why should they have the privilege of know who was NOT selected?

NOTE: When an organization has a policy in place that requires the phone call, I believe that it should be made. In no way would I suggest that chapters go against an inter/national policy. I am debating the practice in general, not whether or not chapters should adhere to rules.

I am curious to hear a reason for the notification beyond "respect the alumna." Why is it necessary to hear it from the chapter (if you can't hear the reason why) as opposed to hearing it from the PNM?

[UGAalum94]

It's really interesting to me that you think the party lists are privileged membership selection. I don't think that way at all.
Once the list comes out of the meeting to be sent to panhellenic to match with PNMs, I don't think it's private MS anymore. (I mean, just the list of names stops being MS. How you developed the list is still MS.)

ETA: Respect for the alumna IS really the only reason that I think the calls should be made, but for me, that would be enough. And again, I only mean for groups that have set up the expectation she be called. If we are talking about changing policies, I don't know that this notification has to be a phone call before the PNM receives her invite list. But I think it might be wise for groups to try to reach out in some way to the alumna because the rejection of someone in her immediate family might create some complicated feelings. Maybe it could be a well-thought-out, composed-by-the-national/international GLO letter: I have no idea. It's just been my experience that people take their family members pretty personally and reaching out to a member after you cut her daughter or sister might be a gesture of good will.

I also don't think recruitment party lists or invite lists are the kind of thing that we should worry about keeping tightly within the bounds of privacy. I don't mean that we should post them publicly (although I think bid day new member lists being publicly available are fine), but that calling a girl's mother, grandmother, or sister to tell them the name of one PNM who isn't invited back, isn't a big privacy violation. From my perspective, the call doesn't have that much to do with the PNM anyway; it's all about the relationship with the alumna.

Again, I'm not saying that groups should have to take legacies if they don't want them. Other than sending a recommendation or legacy notification, I don't think the alumna should try to influence MS. But once the chapter has made the decision, notifying her isn't too much to ask, IMO.

[seraphimsprite]

I understand the concerns about PNM privacy that some have raised, but the thing is, once a PNM is released, I would expect most of our organizations are going to be far more concerned about the relationship with their own alumna than the released PNM.

The phone calls are a way for our organizations to maintain relationships with and show respect for our alumnae. Making a courtesy call doesn't mean we're letting our alums "control" or influence membership selection - the decisions have already been made - but it seems only the polite thing to do to let one of our sisters know that we've released their daughter/relative.

I made quite a few of these calls as a Recruitment Supervisor and I have to say, I've never had an alum try to press me into revealing membership selection details. In fact most of the calls I've made were met with a simple "all right, thanks for letting me know" and the few who've asked "why?" accepted a response along the lines of "it was the chapter's decision, can't reveal MS conversations, etc etc" And I generally waited until the next afternoon to make the calls anyway - I'm not going to wake an alum up in the middle of the night for one thing. But I also didn't feel the need to "beat" the PNM to telling the alum - sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. The important thing in my mind was that the call was made at all.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by seraphimsprite

"it was the chapter's decision, can't reveal MS conversations, etc etc"

We never had a legacy go through, so I don't know the official rules, etc, but it seems to me, since you're talking to an initiated sister about official business, that "MS" line is BS.

[seraphimsprite]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

We never had a legacy go through, so I don't know the official rules, etc, but it seems to me, since you're talking to an initiated sister about official business, that "MS" line is BS.

It's really not though. Maybe it's different in your organization, but in my experience MS discussions are supposed to remain in the room. It's a little different than official business from an ordinary chapter meeting, IMO. If all initiated sisters had a right to know MS conversations, then would we start telling members that they were towards the bottom of our bid list once we initiated them? Or any discussion that might have been had about a member?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

We never had a legacy go through, so I don't know the official rules, etc, but it seems to me, since you're talking to an initiated sister about official business, that "MS" line is BS.

MS stays in the room. If someone didn't/couldn't attend MS or left the room because a certain PNM was being discussed that was NOT supposed to be shared with them even though they were initiated sisters and members of the chapter. Did they get told? Almost certainly. Does this mean you have to tell Suzie Alumna why her daughter would get cut? No.

[lyrelyre]

Originally Posted by seraphimsprite

I made quite a few of these calls as a Recruitment Supervisor and I have to say, I've never had an alum try to press me into revealing membership selection details. In fact most of the calls I've made were met with a simple "all right, thanks for letting me know" and the few who've asked "why?" accepted a response along the lines of "it was the chapter's decision, can't reveal MS conversations, etc etc"

Then you are very, very lucky. I have been a recruitment advisor for a few years and every single alumna I have called has wanted to know why their legacy was released and, in my experience, they do not take the standard answer. However, I have no problem sharing the "real" reason they are released, in a PC manner, of course.

[seraphimsprite]

Originally Posted by lyrelyre

Then you are very, very lucky.

Oh, I realize that. My point isn't to say that all alums are accepting of the call and never get pushy, I was just trying to counter the "it will be the very rare phone call that Mom says, 'OKTHXBYE.'" comment because it does happen, at least in my own experience.

[honeychile]

33girl, my chapter was on both sides of that coin when I was in school: a legacy who we couldn't stand, and one that didn't like us. We weren't permitted to drop the one, as she was a 5-generation legacy and those orders came from EO. The other, thankfully, dropped us before we had a problem. The 5-generation legacy simply did not want to be in ANY sorority; she got initiated at Convention, then transferred to a school without a Greek system. We truly did feel sorry for her, once we heard the whole story, but that stands out as the roughest Rush we ever did - and I was Membership Information Chairman at the time!

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I think that maybe the legacy introduction forms could ask about type of notification the alumna would prefer. That would also remind her than she can't expect the PNM to get a bid just because she was member.

It should be regarded as a courtesy by the alumna too, and she shouldn't make is an more unpleasant than it has to be. There are very few objective aspects to MS, and she's never going to get a truly satisfying explanation, so everyone should recognize that's not what the call is about. It's a courtesy; it spares the PNM from having to break the news if it is a case where she is going to feel that she let the member down, but it's not an extension of MS.

I think this is a great idea! That way, even before R starts, the PNM will be ever so aware that R is a two-way street, and she and her mother/sister/grandmother can make the choice together. I think it would save a LOT of hurt feelings.

So many legacies are legacies to more than one GLO anymore, that adding another chapter could give double legacies two chances at a legacy house. Yes, the quota would be smaller (maybe 75 instead of 90?), but in this particular situation, R would run more smoothly.

I keep hearing about R with 150 legacies showing up at houses when Quota is 100, and you just have to know that there are going to be at least 20 heartbreaks in that scenario. And heartbreaks during R can too easily translate into anti-greek feelings - that's why I'm so concerned with the whole legacy situation.

The second part of this is the legacy who's dropped just prior to Pref. Unless this legacy has been arrested for being a member of Charles Manson's band, there is simply NO EXCUSE for doing this. Too often, the other GLOs have figured, "Oh, she's going XYZ, why waste an invitation on her?" and so a legacy - the PNM who is supposed to get a step up in R is left high and dry. If I never hear of another time that this happens, it will be too soon!