NPHC Greeks - how do you feel about this?

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?


Just how unique are we? And to say our traditions imitate no other is incorrect. In fact the history of stepping did not start with BGLOs. And many of the traditions to which you refer began in the last 30 years are less--crossing jackets, hand signs, calls, etc. And as I said before even the term Sands is not universally used the same within the NPHC.

When people say this they really need to clarify because it invalidates the role that NPHC greeks played as the creators of the art form we see and practice today as stepping. While the history of stepping can be traced to African tradition (and so can other things we do), what we have come to know as stepping in this country, what we are all practicing, what many are now imitating, did in fact begin with the NPHC orgs so let's not take away the credit that our brothers and sisters deserve in creating the artform as it exists today because that's not right or fair. And I see a lot of people these days...greek and non-greek trying to do this. So let's not do this or allow others to do it because we all know that once you allow others to take your shine, you'll never get it back.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

I don't think anyone said that the Founders of our orgs did not create our rituals, but maybe the rits were influenced by other orgs such as the Masons, OES, or even other GLOs. Unless you talked to your Founders personally how would you know this didn't happen?

The entire fraternal movement in America began with the Masons so I'm sure their influence is all over the things we all do as GLO's and BGLO's were definitely influenced by GLO's that came before them. But I think the reason why some do not like the copying that other orgs are doing regarding what we do as NPHC orgs, is because these "unique" practices that our orgs created or put a spin on have a history and a meaning behind them no matter when they started exactly. Most people who are copying don't even know or care about that history. I think this is why some people have such a problem. For some it goes really deep and they feel like they're being robbed of something, just as we have been of many things in this country, in the world. I've noticed in working with Black youth especially that we are very protective of the things we create or add uniqueness to...our style, our slang, our traditions, etc. I think this is the deeper issue for some...this is the "real" issue.

[Rudey]

I think it's something you'll see in community service organizations, music/glee clubs, honor societies although I'm sure it turns up rarely in a social fraternity.

-Rudey
--Zing

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The entire fraternal movement in America began with the Masons so I'm sure their influence is all over the things we all do as GLO's and BGLO's were definitely influenced by GLO's that came before them. But I think the reason why some do not like the copying that other orgs are doing regarding what we do as NPHC orgs, is because these "unique" practices that our orgs created or put a spin on have a history and a meaning behind them no matter when they started exactly. Most people who are copying don't even know or care about that history. I think this is why some people have such a problem. For some it goes really deep and they feel like they're being robbed of something, just as we have been of many things in this country, in the world. I've noticed in working with Black youth especially that we are very protective of the things we create or add uniqueness to...our style, our slang, our traditions, etc. I think this is the deeper issue for some...this is the "real" issue.

The only history or meanings I recognize are the ones in our offical tools. Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did. And yes I lived "stepping" being derived from dance steps, marching bands, drum and bugle corps, etc., and other precision step avenues. So yes, we may have put a spin on them, but we did not create them, not were they that unique.

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

Lastly, if there is such a deep meaning behind stepping, why are there lewd gestures included in some shows, and women pay "tributes" to frats with tongues hanging out, grit faces, copying the lewd gestures of frats, ape walking, etc.? This to me negates any deep (and assuming positive) meaning behind stepping.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did.

I know a lot of people who collect elephants. Matter of fact, my mother and I loved and collected elephants.

When I first started befriending the women who also happened be Deltas on the yard, I quickly learned that having elephants around my dorm room can be perceived the wrong way. Nothing was said to me but I could see facial expressions. I can't remember if I put them in a box or not.

Originally Posted by ladygreek

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

In all fairness, the deep meanings will vary and always be debatable. The real issue is with identifiability.

The "ooo-oop" and elephant aren't official and may've started with a certain intent (the "ooo-oop" may've been a knock off of the New York call and I've heard posthoc stories of where the elephant significance comes from) but in the GLO realm of over a decade, and as far as many Sorority officials who aren't blind to reality of changing practices, it is now closely associated with Deltas.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I know a lot of people who collect elephants. Matter of fact, my mother and I loved and collected elephants.

When I first started befriending the women who also happened be Deltas on the yard, I quickly learned that having elephants around my dorm room can be perceived the wrong way. Nothing was said to me but I could see facial expressions. I can't remember if I put them in a box or not.

In all fairness, the deep meanings will vary and always be debatable. The real issue is with identifiability.

The "ooo-oop" and elephant aren't official and may've started with a certain intent (the "ooo-oop" may've been a knock off of the New York call and I've heard posthoc stories of where the elephant significance comes from) but in the GLO realm of over a decade, and as far as many Sorority officials who aren't blind to reality of changing practices, it is now closely associated with Deltas.

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

The only history or meanings I recognize are the ones in our offical tools. Shoot, other folx collected elephants way before Deltas did. And yes I lived "stepping" being derived from dance steps, marching bands, drum and bugle corps, etc., and other precision step avenues. So yes, we may have put a spin on them, but we did not create them, not were they that unique.

So please enlighten me and tell me the deep meaning behind it, as well as calls, hand signs, and crossing jackets--to the point that we are offended at others doing these things. Somehow I missed that in my 38 years as a continually active Delta.

Believe it or not, there is a whole lot that we do as African Americans that connect us to our African heritage without us even knowing it...it's in our blood. I'm learning this more and more with each passing year that I spend married to my Ghanian husband. I also read a lot about the traditions and culture of African tribal groups...there is just so much that we do that are a reflection of Africa and I think a lot of what we do (as Black people, not only as Black greeks), we don't even know why we do this or that but some things were in fact passed down to us by our ancestors, only the stories behind them were cut off at some point and not passed down. For example, the whole idea of call and response, whether we're chanting and representing our neighborhoods, singing, or doing an NPHC call, that tradition has a history. Another example is that there are many NPHC members who will argue that the art of stepping wasn't formally taught to us, that our brothers and sisters had never actually seen African gumboot performances, but somehow we ended up creating something (pulling from various influences and artforms) that greatly resembled what our African brothers were already doing. In fact, this talk of African gumboot performances and our connection to them is only a very recent phenomenon, a conversation that most of us weren't even having when I was an undergrad in the early 90's, stepping my little heart out.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning." And I am mostly referring to stepping, handsigns, and crossing jackets.

If that is the case, please PM me with the history and meaning you have learned so I can be better educated. And of course, I know the reason behind collecting elephants, but before that it for many years it was ducks. And they weren't official either.

So I am just saying in this next decade or so all of these may change. Are they trends or traditions? And what time frame indicates one over the other? To me a tradition is much more deeply rooted, and endorsed by the national organization.

Oh and as for your last sentence, that is debatable, because many hold the view that was expressed as sacred and tried to reach a compromise. And even I have defended it saying all the D9 have calls, why not us? But I still view it as a trend, not a tradition.

I do know that not all the NPHC orgs officially and nationally recognize their call, handsign, mascot, etc. and I did hear that we may be the only one that does and I'm not sure about Iota Phi Theta. But for the record, Sigma Gamma Rho does in fact have an official call, handsign, and mascot that is recognized nationally and their meanings are of course made known to members.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

But again, my point is should we hold these "traditions" so dear that when others do them we are offended, because they have "history and meaning."

Yes.

But I really think this is a nontopic. I have never encountered a person or organization that unknowingly emulates our organizations.

The existence of PERPS through our more contemporary identifiers like handsigns and calls lets us know that there are thousands of people who recognize us by them. Whether there is a Founding purpose or not.

[L.O.C.K.]

Ladygreek...man you're so SMART!!! Hahaha, I like what you said a lot.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition? If you have a health fair for two years in a row, is it a tradition?

On one hand, I see people's points about the need to possess cultural heritage. Specifically, the Black community has been robbed countless times throughout history of its practices and traditions, so it seems natural to be protective of it. I'm sure if you reversed the roles of the last 600 years of Whites and Blacks you'd have the same want of many for protection and preservation of culture.

Yet, culture in itself is such a vague term. What constitutes it? Who can claim to have "ownership" of a certain cultural practice? In Greek terms, just adopting Greek letters is copying Phi Beta Kappa. Have secret rituals, etc. is also from them and before them the Masons. Everything is shared and mutates over time when different people adapt it to their own needs.

Like I said before, I think cultural defensiveness directly stems from how much you feel your culture has been taken from you. For example, if non-Scottish people started trying to play the bagpipes, I wouldn't be offended because inherently I feel I can have ownership of that "tradition" and "cultural" practice.

I don't know if any of my ramblings are making sense. I am trying to look at it from an academic point of view, ahaha.

As BluNYC2 said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Why do you think Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural Greeks are imitating Black Greeks? I think it comes from a need to find one's niche and establish a counter-culture that is anti-mainstream (ie White). Black Greeks have a much longer tradition of creating (and sustaining) this counter-culture. Because of this, people look to it for guidance and direction, sometimes even subconsciously.

D9 orgs have a lot of pride and history in themselves, and it is truly admirable and something people see. Now, you're seeing people measure themselves to standards of D9 orgs...Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural orgs have their measures of success based upon Black Greek orgs. 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible b/c anything that was Black or related to Black culture was considered bad by mainstream society.

Am I saying that everything is peachy now? Helllllll no. But the fact that people who aren't Black are emulating Black culture and traditions is truly intruiging on a sociological level. Is some of that imitation degrading? Yes of course (see people trying to act what they feel is "gangsta" or "ghetto"). However, when it comes to things like developing a strong presence on campus in the form of community programs, student organizational involvement, philanthropy, and alumni involvement, I personally feel that is a very good thing. Indeed, Black Greeks are the Gold Standard when it comes to that.

What I think has to happen now is that there needs to be more interraction between various Greek groups (ie NPC/NIC, NPHC, NALFO, NAPA, NMGC, etc) and beginning to develop mutual understanding and respect for each other (b/c I personally feel it doesn't exist now much outside of one's own ethnic Greek group) and share practices and ideas.

Imagine what could be done if things were shared and people had that cultural respect...man it'd be amazing.

Ok, I'm off my idealistic Soap Box now.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

Ladygreek...man you're so SMART!!! Hahaha, I like what you said a lot.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition? If you have a health fair for two years in a row, is it a tradition?

On one hand, I see people's points about the need to possess cultural heritage. Specifically, the Black community has been robbed countless times throughout history of its practices and traditions, so it seems natural to be protective of it. I'm sure if you reversed the roles of the last 600 years of Whites and Blacks you'd have the same want of many for protection and preservation of culture.

Yet, culture in itself is such a vague term. What constitutes it? Who can claim to have "ownership" of a certain cultural practice? In Greek terms, just adopting Greek letters is copying Phi Beta Kappa. Have secret rituals, etc. is also from them and before them the Masons. Everything is shared and mutates over time when different people adapt it to their own needs.

Like I said before, I think cultural defensiveness directly stems from how much you feel your culture has been taken from you. For example, if non-Scottish people started trying to play the bagpipes, I wouldn't be offended because inherently I feel I can have ownership of that "tradition" and "cultural" practice.

I don't know if any of my ramblings are making sense. I am trying to look at it from an academic point of view, ahaha.

As BluNYC2 said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Why do you think Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural Greeks are imitating Black Greeks? I think it comes from a need to find one's niche and establish a counter-culture that is anti-mainstream (ie White). Black Greeks have a much longer tradition of creating (and sustaining) this counter-culture. Because of this, people look to it for guidance and direction, sometimes even subconsciously.

D9 orgs have a lot of pride and history in themselves, and it is truly admirable and something people see. Now, you're seeing people measure themselves to standards of D9 orgs...Latino/a, Asian, Multicultural orgs have their measures of success based upon Black Greek orgs. 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible b/c anything that was Black or related to Black culture was considered bad by mainstream society.

Am I saying that everything is peachy now? Helllllll no. But the fact that people who aren't Black are emulating Black culture and traditions is truly intruiging on a sociological level. Is some of that imitation degrading? Yes of course (see people trying to act what they feel is "gangsta" or "ghetto"). However, when it comes to things like developing a strong presence on campus in the form of community programs, student organizational involvement, philanthropy, and alumni involvement, I personally feel that is a very good thing. Indeed, Black Greeks are the Gold Standard when it comes to that.

What I think has to happen now is that there needs to be more interraction between various Greek groups (ie NPC/NIC, NPHC, NALFO, NAPA, NMGC, etc) and beginning to develop mutual understanding and respect for each other (b/c I personally feel it doesn't exist now much outside of one's own ethnic Greek group) and share practices and ideas.

Imagine what could be done if things were shared and people had that cultural respect...man it'd be amazing.

Ok, I'm off my idealistic Soap Box now.

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

This is kind of what I was getting at. The last 2 posts expressed it perfectly. Thanks!

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by L.O.C.K.

I think "tradition" is something people like to throw around. What constitutes a tradition?

I really think people are putting 10 on 2 with this topic.

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

From a larger context: Any practice that breeds recognition and has done so for years across the country will be called a "tradition" by many. Not everyone will agree on that and not everyone has to.

Smaller context: If people want to use the term "tradition" then that's what they will do. My chapter had traditional programs and practices that no other organization on that campus had. I remember when another organization tried to take ALL of our ideas and formatting and rename it without even speaking to us about a collaboration. This didn't sit too well with us and the program wasn't accepted by the campus community. That's fine if folks want to adopt and adapt CERTAIN traditions. Just KNOW where you got it from and don't front like you and your organization came up with it. That also goes to NPHC traditions that came from elsewhere.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I really think people are putting 10 on 2 with this topic.

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

From a larger context: Any practice that breeds recognition and has done so for years across the country will be called a "tradition" by many. Not everyone will agree on that and not everyone has to.

Smaller context: If people want to use the term "tradition" then that's what they will do. My chapter had traditional programs and practices that no other organization on that campus had. I remember when another organization tried to take ALL of our ideas and formatting and rename it without even speaking to us about a collaboration. This didn't sit too well with us and the program wasn't accepted by the campus community. That's fine if folks want to adopt and adapt CERTAIN traditions. Just KNOW where you got it from and don't front like you and your organization came up with it. That also goes to NPHC traditions that came from elsewhere.

Exactly. And this just adds to the point I made earlier about the disrespect that's currently going on now among some of the non-NPHC orgs that are emulating our traditions.

[Ilaria Ame]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

The bold text is what I really have a problem with. I know that some non- NPHC orgs take things like stepping very seriously and they have respect for NPHC greeks and some even look to them for guidance in some areas, but there are some that only clown and make a big joke out of every thing we do and that goes for things in Black culture in general. Every thing we do is just a big old joke to them. I respect everyone's culture whether I understand it or not and I don't make fun of other people's cultures or try to put them down for it just because I don't understand something or just because I personally wouldn't do this or that. But some people are just being plain disrespectful like some of the non-NPHC greeks who want to say now that we did not create stepping as it exists today just because they heard (and I say heard because most of them haven't even done the research for themselves) that stepping has African origins. Some of the things that are going on are just plain rude and disrespectful and yes, if you're going to be disrespectful, then don't emulate us at all...why would you want to? Take things to the next level and start your own damn thang.

who do you see as "them"? i've never witnessed a non-HBGLO step, stroll, call, etc in jest. in fact, the orgs i've seen have been very serious about what they're doing and would be insulted to be told that they're not. i'm not saying what you said doesn't happen, but i just can't imagine it.