B.E. article on APhiA Arizona Boycott.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by The Original Ape

what about illegal EUROPEAN immigrants?

Same issue applies.....

It's not the origin of their country, it is the fact that they are illegal.


It's just that in this part of Texas, illegal Hispanics seem to be the most common. Besides, of the Europeans that I know, they really don't have a hard time getting visas to stay in the US. For everyone else, it can be a very long and very expensive process.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

of the Europeans that I know, they really don't have a hard time getting visas to stay in the US. For everyone else, it can be a very long and very expensive process.

This has also been my experience.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It's not the origin of their country, it is the fact that they are illegal.

But, it is about the country of origin. The illegal immigrant initiatives aren't targeting all illegal immigrants. They are directed toward illegal immigrants from brown and black nations and particularly Spanish speaking countries. These are the countries whose immigrants have been correlated with disproportionate crime and low income living in America. The immigrants from white nations get a pass, regardless of what people say to be PC, because they easily assimilate into whiteness (or, into America since "whiteness" and "America" still go hand-in-hand).

I caught a snippet on CNN that this illegal immigrant law is about to pass in AZ and another state that is far away from the borders is considering a law.

ETA: I also read the rest of your post about European immigrants having less difficulty getting visas. I agree and I believe that's also represented in the lower percentage of European immigrants who are illegal. That issue alone highlights another potential problem with this illegal immigration law. However, getting a visa with less difficulty doesn't erase the fact that you can overstay your visa and still become an illegal immigrant. That is something that has become an issue for immigrants from nonSpanish speaking countries. A CNN news story stated that illegal immigrants who have tried to return to their country are unable to do so because officials will see that they overstayed their visa. Therefore, they can't stay and they can't leave. What to do?

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

But, it is about the country of origin. The illegal immigrant initiatives aren't targeting all illegal immigrants. They are directed toward illegal immigrants from brown and black nations and particularly Spanish speaking countries. These are the countries whose immigrants have been correlated with disproportionate crime and low income living in America.

You're right. I don't know if you have seen in the news lately that there are extremely violent drug cartels in Mexico. They are / have been trying to push their violence into the US. The best way to stop it is to stop them at the border. There are also those Mexican citizens who have nothing to do with the drug violence, but because they 'all look alike', everyone becomes suspect. Is it right / fair? No, but that is what is happening. Also, I'm sure that if there were just as bad drug cartels coming out of Canada, there would be efforts to try to secure the US/Canadian border, who knows.

The immigrants from white nations get a pass, regardless of what people say to be PC, because they easily assimilate into whiteness (or, into America since "whiteness" and "America" still go hand-in-hand).

I agree here too.

I caught a snippet on CNN that this illegal immigrant law is about to pass in AZ and another state that is far away from the borders is considering a law.

I'd much rather states take the initiative to control this issue over those wacko blatantly racist militia groups who hang out in Idaho.

ETA: I also read the rest of your post about European immigrants having less difficulty getting visas. I agree and I believe that's also represented in the lower percentage of European immigrants who are illegal. That issue alone highlights another potential problem with this illegal immigration law. However, getting a visa with less difficulty doesn't erase the fact that you can overstay your visa and still become an illegal immigrant. That is something that has become an issue for immigrants from nonSpanish speaking countries. A CNN news story stated that illegal immigrants who have tried to return to their country are unable to do so because officials will see that they overstayed their visa. Therefore, they can't stay and they can't leave. What to do?

Hang out in Canada until they can clear up their issue?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

You're right. I don't know if you have seen in the news lately that there are extremely violent drug cartels in Mexico. They are / have been trying to push their violence into the US. The best way to stop it is to stop them at the border. There are also those Mexican citizens who have nothing to do with the drug violence, but because they 'all look alike', everyone becomes suspect. Is it right / fair? No, but that is what is happening. Also, I'm sure that if there were just as bad drug cartels coming out of Canada, there would be efforts to try to secure the US/Canadian border, who knows.

So, for this reason and other reasons, country of origin and race and ethnicity do matter. This isn't just an issue of illegal immigration and people need to stop pretending as though there is equality in the illegal immigration debate.

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So, for this reason and other reasons, country of origin and race and ethnicity do matter. This isn't just an issue of illegal immigration and people need to stop pretending as though there is equality in the illegal immigration debate.

This is exactly my point from earlier in the discussion. You all have laid out the issues quite clearly.

Besides the 'crime' issue, its also about jobs. 'They' are taking 'our' jobs, so 'they' have to go. Sound familiar?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Same issue applies.....

It's not the origin of their country, it is the fact that they are illegal.


It's just that in this part of Texas, illegal Hispanics seem to be the most common. Besides, of the Europeans that I know, they really don't have a hard time getting visas to stay in the US. For everyone else, it can be a very long and very expensive process.

Most of the "white" illegal aliens find themselves in that situation by overstaying their temp visas or end up being deported by default for failing to appear before a immigration judge when summoned. Once you are in the system and have your "green card" it's easy to stay current and legal. The problem with overstays is that it's near impossible to find them and if they happen to live in a sanctuary city.... Well, they might be able to stay hidden from immigration authorities forever.

The thing about "white" immigrants and why it seems they have it easier than poorer immigrants is because they do have it easier. Some things to consider.
1. Quotas- the US only issues out so many imm and non-imm visas a year, giving each country in the world a portion of them. Typically the visas in third world or poorer countries get snapped up first because more people are trying to leave those countries for the US than people already living in an industrialized nation, like EU countries. That's why it seems like they can get here "faster".

2. MONEY. You have to have it. You even have to prove that you have it and won't be a public burden. If you don't have a pot to piss in the US is not going to issue you a imm visa just so you can get off the plane and head straight to the welfare office. A lot of the immigrants coming from Mexico are deemed ineligible because of this fact that they have little to no money.

3. Actually applying- I work with immigrants and from my personal experience, it's easier for them to find someone willing to smuggle them over than it is to find someone willing to help them fill out the application. It's almost ingrained, especially in the smaller citys and pueblas, that if you want to go to America, just cross the river at night. I ask every single one if they have petitioned or applied for any sort of entry document and the answer is no 99.8% of the time. Obviously, when it comes to Europeans or Asians, they won't even be able to get on the plane without a valid passport/visa. Also, if you can drop a grand for a flight to NYC you can afford to spend a couple hundred more for your imm paperwork.

So I'm gonna say that it's not necessarily white imm VS brown imm, it's just that immigrants from Latin American countries just don't have the means or ways to immigrate like the ones from industrialized nations do.

It is what it is....

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So I'm gonna say that it's not necessarily white imm VS brown imm, it's just that immigrants from Latin American countries just don't have the means or ways to immigrate like the ones from industrialized nations do.

Socioeconomic status is highly correlated with race and ethnicity nationally and internationally. It is almost impossible to distinguish the effect of "white vs brown" from the effect of capital because it is no coincidence where the poverty lies in the world.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So, for this reason and other reasons, country of origin and race and ethnicity do matter. This isn't just an issue of illegal immigration and people need to stop pretending as though there is equality in the illegal immigration debate.

In regards to this comment, and after reading PiKA2001 comment, I have found that the biggest issue is money. And, as you know, in many contexts possession of money and race / ethnic origin are (loosely) correlated.

So, I disagree with you - there is equality in the illegal immigration debate. The inequality occurs whether or not that immigrant can afford the time and filing fees / attorneys to become legal.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Socioeconomic status is highly correlated with race and ethnicity nationally and internationally. It is almost impossible to distinguish the effect of "white vs brown" from the effect of capital because it is no coincidence where the poverty lies in the world.

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

The correlation is not a loose one. It is a high correlation, just as it is when discussing race and social class in America. Just as when discussing social issues in America, if it's a matter of the "haves and have nots," it's basically synonymous with it being a matter of race and ethnicity. There are social patterns in who the "haves and have nots" are. We know where to find the "have nots" in the poor neighborhoods in America and in the poor countries in the world. We call it "city planning" in America and I call it "country planning" in the world.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence. Stop pretending as though the country of origin and race and ethnicity don't matter...unless we're suddenly talking about drug cartels. Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

The correlation is not a loose one. It is a high correlation, just as it is when discussing race and social class in America. Just as when discussing social issues in America, if it's a matter of the "haves and have nots," it's basically synonymous with it being a matter of race and ethnicity. There are social patterns in who the "haves and have nots" are. We know where to find the "have nots" in the poor neighborhoods in America and in the poor countries in the world. We call it "city planning" in America and I call it "country planning" in the world.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence. Stop pretending as though the country of origin and race and ethnicity don't matter...unless we're suddenly talking about drug cartels. Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

I respect your opinion, and we can debate the academic / philosophical issue all day, but the bottom line is that there are illegal immigrants here, be they brown, white, black, what-have-you, with money or no money, and the issue will need to get resolved.

I can tell you that on a practical day-to-day basis I don't think people are really worried about the socioeconomic concerns. I think all they see are people moving in their area who they are already suspicious about, and the fact they the may not be legal presents a problem.

For me personally, what I see is increasing violence coming out of Mexico, pushing its way to the US. I live in a border state, and I'm about 6 hours from the border, so the issue literally is hitting close to home to me. I don't want that violence here. If it takes tougher immigration laws to help stop it, then I'm going for the tougher immigration laws.

Now, to be completely flippant about it , if you are so concerned about the economic disparity that some illegal immigrants face, then just put your money where your mouth is and pay for their pursuit to legal status until the laws are such that we let any and everybody in this country, no matter what.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

It's okay. It was about 1 am this morning when I repleid to your post.

The correlation is not a loose one.

I think you are making this a strictly "either/or" argument. To me what you are saying is that Black/ Brown is a direct and automatic indication of poverty and White is a direct and automatic indication of wealth. It is not sooooooo cut and dry like that. Are there a number of minorities who are poor, yes, but there are also some poor whites. Are there a number of whites who are rich, yes, and there are a number of minorities who are rich too. That is why I said a loose correlation. Being Black does not automatically mean you are poor. To me, that is what you are saying.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence.

But it is. We don't usually hear about the lucky ones with money. We only hear about the unlucky ones because they are the ones that make the news. A couple of years ago, a truck was found in SW Texas with dead illegal immigrants in the back. That made news. They were the unlucky ones.

Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

The average "Joe" American is not going to do this. They should, but they are not.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

and we can debate the academic / philosophical issue all day, but the bottom line is that there are illegal immigrants here, be they brown, white, black, what-have-you, with money or no money, and the issue will need to get resolved.

There is nothing academic or philosophical about what I typed and you are not going to reduce my comments to that. The bottom line is that you now grasp the point that country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status matter in the illegal immigration debate.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I can tell you that on a practical day-to-day basis I don't think people are really worried about the socioeconomic concerns. I think all they see are people moving in their area who they are already suspicious about, and the fact they the may not be legal presents a problem.

My idea of practical day-to-day completely differs from yours. Do you not listen to the things that people say about illegal immigrants? The things that people say go far beyond whether or not someone has a visa or have overstayed their visa. And the issue of suspicion goes back to racial and ethnic profiling because it mostly occurs in areas with brown and black immigrants regardless of visa status.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me personally, what I see is increasing violence coming out of Mexico, pushing its way to the US. I live in a border state, and I'm about 6 hours from the border, so the issue literally is hitting close to home to me. I don't want that violence here. If it takes tougher immigration laws to help stop it, then I'm going for the tougher immigration laws.

As I said in the post that you quoted: "Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use."

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Now, to be completely flippant

Don't be. Anyway, this is now a very circular discussion.

LET THE PARTY BEGIN http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07...ed-illegal-im/

The FUN thing about this list is that some of the people on it are here legally. Woohoo! Ain't no party like an immigrant party, 'cause an immigrant party don't stop!

[DrPhil]

Why did you reply twice to the same post?

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I think you are making this a strictly "either/or" argument. To me what you are saying is that Black/ Brown is a direct and automatic indication of poverty and White is a direct and automatic indication of wealth.

No, and I think you're keen enough (and have hopefully read enough of my posts on Greekchat where I have discussed middle and upper class Blacks and poor whites) to know that. This is where I must be cliche' and advise you to research what "high correlation" means in terms of trends and patterns in our social world.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The average "Joe" American is not going to do this. They should, but they are not.

I tend to jokingly seriously depict people as dumb but it's not because people HAVE to be dumb. How the illegal immigration debate is being carried out is about perceived group threat (i.e. "they are taking our jobs") that uses fear of the "other" (i.e. illegal immigrants who "don't look like us") to rile people up. This is not about the average American (who is not a "Joe," by the way) being an idiot who is void of social consciousness. I really want to believe that the Europeans were NOT accurate in depicting Americans as dummies who were incapable of even staging a worker revolt.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

There is nothing academic or philosophical about what I typed and you are not going to reduce my comments to that.

Sorry about that. I thought that I was giving you a compliment.

The bottom line is that you now grasp the point that country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status matter in the illegal immigration debate.

I guess, to a point. I just don't think it is always so cut and dry based strictly on race / ethnicity as you are trying to make it. There may be some tendencies to trends, but I also think there are a lot of exceptions to the rule.

My idea of practical day-to-day completely differs from yours.

Yeah, I think we (you and I) have come to this conclusion before in other issues that we have discussed.

Do you not listen to the things that people say about illegal immigrants? The things that people say go far beyond whether or not someone has a visa or have overstayed their visa. And the issue of suspicion goes back to racial and ethnic profiling because it mostly occurs in areas with brown and black immigrants regardless of visa status.

Have you not experienced the arrogance of illegal immigrants in this country towards you, as a Black American? I mean, some of these people come over here, they don't speak the language, don't want to assimilate and socialize with you, and yet they want to look down their nose at you like being a Black American is a second class citizen when they have no rights in this country. It goes both ways sister.

As I said in the post that you quoted: "Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use."

This is good, but it won't happen. People won't think rationally about the issue, they are just going to go with how they "feel".

Anyway, this is now a very circular discussion.

Yup!

LET THE PARTY BEGIN http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07...ed-illegal-im/

The FUN thing about this list is that some of the people on it are here legally. Woohoo! Ain't no party like an immigrant party, 'cause an immigrant party don't stop!

Good stuff!!!