B.E. article on APhiA Arizona Boycott.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So I'm gonna say that it's not necessarily white imm VS brown imm, it's just that immigrants from Latin American countries just don't have the means or ways to immigrate like the ones from industrialized nations do.

Socioeconomic status is highly correlated with race and ethnicity nationally and internationally. It is almost impossible to distinguish the effect of "white vs brown" from the effect of capital because it is no coincidence where the poverty lies in the world.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Socioeconomic status is highly correlated with race and ethnicity nationally and internationally. It is almost impossible to distinguish the effect of "white vs brown" from the effect of capital because it is no coincidence where the poverty lies in the world.

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

The correlation is not a loose one. It is a high correlation, just as it is when discussing race and social class in America. Just as when discussing social issues in America, if it's a matter of the "haves and have nots," it's basically synonymous with it being a matter of race and ethnicity. There are social patterns in who the "haves and have nots" are. We know where to find the "have nots" in the poor neighborhoods in America and in the poor countries in the world. We call it "city planning" in America and I call it "country planning" in the world.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence. Stop pretending as though the country of origin and race and ethnicity don't matter...unless we're suddenly talking about drug cartels. Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

The correlation is not a loose one. It is a high correlation, just as it is when discussing race and social class in America. Just as when discussing social issues in America, if it's a matter of the "haves and have nots," it's basically synonymous with it being a matter of race and ethnicity. There are social patterns in who the "haves and have nots" are. We know where to find the "have nots" in the poor neighborhoods in America and in the poor countries in the world. We call it "city planning" in America and I call it "country planning" in the world.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence. Stop pretending as though the country of origin and race and ethnicity don't matter...unless we're suddenly talking about drug cartels. Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

I respect your opinion, and we can debate the academic / philosophical issue all day, but the bottom line is that there are illegal immigrants here, be they brown, white, black, what-have-you, with money or no money, and the issue will need to get resolved.

I can tell you that on a practical day-to-day basis I don't think people are really worried about the socioeconomic concerns. I think all they see are people moving in their area who they are already suspicious about, and the fact they the may not be legal presents a problem.

For me personally, what I see is increasing violence coming out of Mexico, pushing its way to the US. I live in a border state, and I'm about 6 hours from the border, so the issue literally is hitting close to home to me. I don't want that violence here. If it takes tougher immigration laws to help stop it, then I'm going for the tougher immigration laws.

Now, to be completely flippant about it , if you are so concerned about the economic disparity that some illegal immigrants face, then just put your money where your mouth is and pay for their pursuit to legal status until the laws are such that we let any and everybody in this country, no matter what.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

and we can debate the academic / philosophical issue all day, but the bottom line is that there are illegal immigrants here, be they brown, white, black, what-have-you, with money or no money, and the issue will need to get resolved.

There is nothing academic or philosophical about what I typed and you are not going to reduce my comments to that. The bottom line is that you now grasp the point that country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status matter in the illegal immigration debate.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I can tell you that on a practical day-to-day basis I don't think people are really worried about the socioeconomic concerns. I think all they see are people moving in their area who they are already suspicious about, and the fact they the may not be legal presents a problem.

My idea of practical day-to-day completely differs from yours. Do you not listen to the things that people say about illegal immigrants? The things that people say go far beyond whether or not someone has a visa or have overstayed their visa. And the issue of suspicion goes back to racial and ethnic profiling because it mostly occurs in areas with brown and black immigrants regardless of visa status.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me personally, what I see is increasing violence coming out of Mexico, pushing its way to the US. I live in a border state, and I'm about 6 hours from the border, so the issue literally is hitting close to home to me. I don't want that violence here. If it takes tougher immigration laws to help stop it, then I'm going for the tougher immigration laws.

As I said in the post that you quoted: "Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use."

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Now, to be completely flippant

Don't be. Anyway, this is now a very circular discussion.

LET THE PARTY BEGIN http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07...ed-illegal-im/

The FUN thing about this list is that some of the people on it are here legally. Woohoo! Ain't no party like an immigrant party, 'cause an immigrant party don't stop!

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

There is nothing academic or philosophical about what I typed and you are not going to reduce my comments to that.

Sorry about that. I thought that I was giving you a compliment.

The bottom line is that you now grasp the point that country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status matter in the illegal immigration debate.

I guess, to a point. I just don't think it is always so cut and dry based strictly on race / ethnicity as you are trying to make it. There may be some tendencies to trends, but I also think there are a lot of exceptions to the rule.

My idea of practical day-to-day completely differs from yours.

Yeah, I think we (you and I) have come to this conclusion before in other issues that we have discussed.

Do you not listen to the things that people say about illegal immigrants? The things that people say go far beyond whether or not someone has a visa or have overstayed their visa. And the issue of suspicion goes back to racial and ethnic profiling because it mostly occurs in areas with brown and black immigrants regardless of visa status.

Have you not experienced the arrogance of illegal immigrants in this country towards you, as a Black American? I mean, some of these people come over here, they don't speak the language, don't want to assimilate and socialize with you, and yet they want to look down their nose at you like being a Black American is a second class citizen when they have no rights in this country. It goes both ways sister.

As I said in the post that you quoted: "Facing the inequality of the immigration debate doesn't mean that we agree with illegal immigration and are opposed to regulations. It means that we are being HONEST about the issues at hand and the pros and cons of the laws that are enacted. Put our brains and social consciousness to good use."

This is good, but it won't happen. People won't think rationally about the issue, they are just going to go with how they "feel".

Anyway, this is now a very circular discussion.

Yup!

LET THE PARTY BEGIN http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07...ed-illegal-im/

The FUN thing about this list is that some of the people on it are here legally. Woohoo! Ain't no party like an immigrant party, 'cause an immigrant party don't stop!

Good stuff!!!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Sorry about that. I thought that I was giving you a compliment.

The context wasn't complimentary.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I guess, to a point. I just don't think it is always so cut and dry based strictly on race / ethnicity as you are trying to make it. There may be some tendencies to trends, but I also think there are a lot of exceptions to the rule.

Strictly? The part of my post that you quoted stated "country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status."

The very nature of trends is that there are exceptions. The trends are more important to me for the purpose of this discussion because the illegal immigration debate confuses trends with exceptions, as evidenced by the following:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Have you not experienced the arrogance of illegal immigrants in this country towards you, as a Black American? I mean, some of these people come over here, they don't speak the language, don't want to assimilate and socialize with you, and yet they want to look down their nose at you like being a Black American is a second class citizen when they have no rights in this country.

LOL. I hope you know that you have proven my points. So, you just don't LIKE them or something? You've had enough of being treated like a negroid by white folks (in general) and will be darned if those newbies come here illegally and treat you like a negroid? Do you really give a darn about how they perceive you as a Black American? Really? Illegal immigrants aren't the only people here who don't speak the language and don't want to assimilate or socialize with you. Let the record show that assimilating and socializing with Black people has always been the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to living in the America. Surely your experience as a Black American has given you thicker skin than to care about such things.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The context wasn't complimentary.



Strictly? The part of my post that you quoted stated "country of origin, race and ethnicity, AND socioeconomic status."

The very nature of trends is that there are exceptions. The trends are more important to me for the purpose of this discussion because the illegal immigration debate confuses trends with exceptions, as evidenced by the following:

Right, they are important to you. But, to the people of Arizona, they are not. They are the one who are going to vote and support this law.

And, quite frankly, people don't want to discuss. They want action. They want something done, however they perceive it.

LOL. I hope you know that you have proven my points. So, you just don't LIKE them or something?

Oh on the contrary. I've dated them, "or something".

You've had enough of being treated like a negroid by white folks (in general) and will be darned if those newbies come here illegally and treat you like a negroid? Do you really give a darn about how they perceive you as a Black American? Really?

Yes, I do, because their perception of Black Americans usually come from stereotypes that they have seen on TV - rap music, sagging pants, "baby mama drama". There is more to Black culture and history in this country than what they get. So yeah, it does bother me.

Illegal immigrants aren't the only people here who don't speak the language and don't want to assimilate or socialize with you.

Yes, I agree.

Let the record show that assimilating and socializing with Black people has always been the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to living in the America.

The Kardashians don't seem to think so!

Surely your experience as a Black American has given you thicker skin than to care about such things.

Oh yes, I do have thick skin. And I do care about "such things". I care about my community and who is coming into it and what they are doing. I care about my state and my country because my ancestors have had an (unsung) influence in shaping both. I care very much. I know who I am and where I come from. I care.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sigmadiva, read this post and think about your reply to my other post. Your reply made absolutely no sense to me.

It's okay. It was about 1 am this morning when I repleid to your post.

The correlation is not a loose one.

I think you are making this a strictly "either/or" argument. To me what you are saying is that Black/ Brown is a direct and automatic indication of poverty and White is a direct and automatic indication of wealth. It is not sooooooo cut and dry like that. Are there a number of minorities who are poor, yes, but there are also some poor whites. Are there a number of whites who are rich, yes, and there are a number of minorities who are rich too. That is why I said a loose correlation. Being Black does not automatically mean you are poor. To me, that is what you are saying.

So, as I said, people need to stop dancing around the issue. Stop pretending as though this is just a matter of the lucky ones with the money as though that's a coincidence.

But it is. We don't usually hear about the lucky ones with money. We only hear about the unlucky ones because they are the ones that make the news. A couple of years ago, a truck was found in SW Texas with dead illegal immigrants in the back. That made news. They were the unlucky ones.

Put our brains and social consciousness to good use.

The average "Joe" American is not going to do this. They should, but they are not.

[DrPhil]

Why did you reply twice to the same post?

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I think you are making this a strictly "either/or" argument. To me what you are saying is that Black/ Brown is a direct and automatic indication of poverty and White is a direct and automatic indication of wealth.

No, and I think you're keen enough (and have hopefully read enough of my posts on Greekchat where I have discussed middle and upper class Blacks and poor whites) to know that. This is where I must be cliche' and advise you to research what "high correlation" means in terms of trends and patterns in our social world.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The average "Joe" American is not going to do this. They should, but they are not.

I tend to jokingly seriously depict people as dumb but it's not because people HAVE to be dumb. How the illegal immigration debate is being carried out is about perceived group threat (i.e. "they are taking our jobs") that uses fear of the "other" (i.e. illegal immigrants who "don't look like us") to rile people up. This is not about the average American (who is not a "Joe," by the way) being an idiot who is void of social consciousness. I really want to believe that the Europeans were NOT accurate in depicting Americans as dummies who were incapable of even staging a worker revolt.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Why did you reply twice to the same post?

I'm more awake now, so I guess I have more to say.

No, and I think you're keen enough (and have hopefully read enough of my posts on Greekchat where I have discussed middle and upper class Blacks and poor whites) to know that. This is where I must be cliche' and advise you to research what "high correlation" means in terms of trends and patterns in our social world.

I just don't think many people, white, Black, brown, are going to see this issue in a social context. You and I can talk about it all day, but I can almost promise that the people in Arizona are not thinking about it in some socioeconomic, racial. ethnic context. Those are the people you need to convince.

I tend to jokingly seriously depict people as dumb but it's not because people HAVE to be dumb. How the illegal immigration debate is being carried out is about perceived group threat (i.e. "they are taking our jobs") that uses fear of the "other" (i.e. illegal immigrants who "don't look like us") to rile people up.

This argument style is used a lot though. Both ways. "They are keeping drugs in our community", "They are keeping the quality of our schools down". Yes, "they" may be, but we also have a responsibility to ourselves too that we must fulfill.

This is not about the average American (who is not a "Joe," by the way) being an idiot who is void of social consciousness. I really want to believe that the Europeans were NOT accurate in depicting Americans as dummies who were incapable of even staging a worker revolt.

No, they were just wrong and underestimated the Americans desire.