Ohio State Budget Abortion Restrictions

[AXOmom]

Hmmm- I need to stop by this site more often – always an interesting conversation going on.


DubaiSis – I have a couple of questions, and I want to let you know before I ask them that I do consider myself prolife, but I completely agree with MysticCat’s point that these type of discussions go nowhere if we don’t understand the point of view of those with whom we disagree or think we disagree, so I want to assure you that these are not meant to sound snarky, but come from a desire to understand your perspective. If my attempts to paraphrase your points mischaracterize them, please correct me.

1) You stated that you didn’t want “religious people” or more specifically Christians cramming their beliefs down your throat. How do you think they are doing this – in other words, do you believe they are bypassing the usual political process that exists in order to affect change when we (meaning citizens) feel change is necessary or do you mean they are doing this in some other way and if so, how do you mean this? I have to say I was a little concerned with the comment that if this is what they want to do, they should start their own Christian country. It sounds a little like the response of conservatives to Vietnam War protestors in the 60”s: America- love it or leave it. Is this what you meant or am I misreading you?


2) You pointed out that there have been cases of pro-lifers or anti-abortionists bombing abortion clinics and there is no corollary among pro-choice groups. Are you arguing that when they (meaning those who would consider themselves liberal) feel strongly about an issue – when they consider it vital to maintaining or bringing about a just society that protects those whom they perceive to be helpless, those who are on the “left” so to speak in their political viewpoints, have never reacted extremely or with violence?

3) Finally, you indicated that you felt there was enough hypocrisy among “religious people” to be noted. This probably will sound snarky, I don’t, again, mean it that way, but I can’t think of another way to word it – how does one quantify the amount of hypocrisy in the roughly 27 million people in this country who identify religion as a high priority for them and determine there is enough of it to be noted? How would one draw the conclusion or find any evidence to support the conclusion that they are more hypocritical than those who claim no religious beliefs? What is the number or percentage of hypocrites within that group necessary to be worth noting? Since we all have moments of hypocrisy, how would you determine whether these people are consistently hypocritical or have moments of hypocrisy common to every human?

I realize these read like long essay questions. I apologize for that, and I understand if you don’t want to take the time necessary to answer all of them or any of them, but as I said, I’ve found that this site is, among other things, a great place to come and read different opinions and find out why people see things the way they do and how they’ve come to their conclusions and beliefs.

[DubaiSis]

I had decided to step out of this conversation, but I'll address this first.

Originally Posted by AXOmom

Hmmm- I need to stop by this site more often – always an interesting conversation going on.


DubaiSis – I have a couple of questions, and I want to let you know before I ask them that I do consider myself prolife, but I completely agree with MysticCat’s point that these type of discussions go nowhere if we don’t understand the point of view of those with whom we disagree or think we disagree, so I want to assure you that these are not meant to sound snarky, but come from a desire to understand your perspective. If my attempts to paraphrase your points mischaracterize them, please correct me.

1) You stated that you didn’t want “religious people” or more specifically Christians cramming their beliefs down your throat. How do you think they are doing this – in other words, do you believe they are bypassing the usual political process that exists in order to affect change when we (meaning citizens) feel change is necessary or do you mean they are doing this in some other way and if so, how do you mean this? I have to say I was a little concerned with the comment that if this is what they want to do, they should start their own Christian country. It sounds a little like the response of conservatives to Vietnam War protestors in the 60”s: America- love it or leave it. Is this what you meant or am I misreading you?

The problem is the screamers get the votes. Anti-choice people are NOT the majority in the US. The problem is Live and Let Live is not a call to aggressive action. It, by definition says you should let people do their own thing. The opposite is most definitely a call to action but skews what the majority actually thinks.

And I didn't say they should start their own Christian country. I said they should move to one. The hard truth for many to accept is the US was most definitely not set up as a Christian country. Most of the founders were either nonreligious or deists, what most would call Unitarian Universalists today. NOT Christian. And the primary idea was freedom FROM religion, and that one has desperately been twisted lately. Ever since Under God was added to the pledge of allegiance, people have really seriously forgotten what separation of church and state means.


2) You pointed out that there have been cases of pro-lifers or anti-abortionists bombing abortion clinics and there is no corollary among pro-choice groups. Are you arguing that when they (meaning those who would consider themselves liberal) feel strongly about an issue – when they consider it vital to maintaining or bringing about a just society that protects those whom they perceive to be helpless, those who are on the “left” so to speak in their political viewpoints, have never reacted extremely or with violence?

I'm sure you are not in support of terrorism, and causing violence because the law is not on your side is terrorism. Campaigning, screaming, yelling, trying to convince lawmakers to do the right thing is not terrorism. Even harassment is not terrorism, although it should be treated as mean spirited, if not illegal.

3) Finally, you indicated that you felt there was enough hypocrisy among “religious people” to be noted. This probably will sound snarky, I don’t, again, mean it that way, but I can’t think of another way to word it – how does one quantify the amount of hypocrisy in the roughly 27 million people in this country who identify religion as a high priority for them and determine there is enough of it to be noted? How would one draw the conclusion or find any evidence to support the conclusion that they are more hypocritical than those who claim no religious beliefs? What is the number or percentage of hypocrites within that group necessary to be worth noting? Since we all have moments of hypocrisy, how would you determine whether these people are consistently hypocritical or have moments of hypocrisy common to every human?

The problem is "religion as a high priority" means exactly jack squat. If you feel that being anti-choice is your religious obligation but vote against child healthcare, you are a hypocrite. You can't be all for the protection of life before it's life but against it once it is undeniably life. You can't be all about love your neighbor, except when that person is black, gay or poor. That is hypocracy. If you want to be a racist bigot woman hater screw the poor person (and I"m not saying you as an individual are any of this) then go for it. But don't then also say religion is a high priority in your life. A lot of people say religion is important, when what is important is being seen at church on Sunday. So cut that 27 million down to, in my completely off the cuff guess, to about 5 million seriously religious people who only want what is good and right for all people in the world and are willing to do what it takes to help every last American.

I realize these read like long essay questions. I apologize for that, and I understand if you don’t want to take the time necessary to answer all of them or any of them, but as I said, I’ve found that this site is, among other things, a great place to come and read different opinions and find out why people see things the way they do and how they’ve come to their conclusions and beliefs.

Now, I am going to step away from this conversation, because there is no answer that doesn't infuriate me. The USA USA we're number 1 thing is tragic and sad, and leads to this kind of I'm right and you need to die tragically and alone sort of legislation that is pervasive in the United States right now in oh so many areas of society.