Ohio State Budget Abortion Restrictions

[DubaiSis]

And, by the way, that doesn't mean killing the abortionist.
But the biggest things that an anti-choice person can do is work to prevent unwanted pregnancy and improve the life of the child who is born from an unwanted pregnancy.

That's a lot harder than having a rally once a year or throwing money at an elected, but it might actually accomplish a reduction in abortion, the only issue they purport to care about.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

And, by the way, that doesn't mean killing the abortionist.

And no where did I suggest it does, I believe, would the vast majority of those who oppose choice on religious grounds.*


* After posting my earlier post, I realized I should have been more precise in my terminology and said "those who oppose choice on religious grounds." There are those who oppose abortion on religious grounds but who do not think the government should get involved in the decision.

But the biggest things that an anti-choice person can do is work to prevent unwanted pregnancy and improve the life of the child who is born from an unwanted pregnancy.

Amen and amen!

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

That's what they say they believe, but it isn't how they act. If each abortion is the exact same thing as shooting a 6-year-old in the head, then it's a moral imperative to put yourself in harm's way to stop it. Actions speak louder than words.

Look how people acted in Newtown when a gunman came to shoot kindergarteners. Every adult in the school threw herself between the bullets and the children, without time to think about it, and they weren't even related to the children. That's what decent people do without hesitation when they see children getting murdered. So if all you do to oppose abortion is vote for a candidate or hand out leaflets, I don't buy that you believe this is the equivalent of shooting a kindergartener in the head. You're acting like it's a pretty bad sin, but a long way from murder.

If there were a legal Auschwitz operating down the street from me instead of an abortion clinic, and 20 minority children were marched into its gas chambers every day, I hope and believe that I'd at LEAST be in jail for chaining myself to its doors.

That's quite a generalization of what "they" believe and how "they" act. Many abortion protesters have been to jail and court for doing pretty much that very thing, while municipalities and states have enacted laws to prevent protests at abortion clinics. And is it really reason to say "well, they don't really beleve that" that when "they" see laws they believe legalize murder, they respond by trying to change those laws?

The point is that we have a 40+ history of people on both sides of this issue (and quite a few others) misunderstanding, mischaracterizing, caricaturing, trivializing or dismissing the opinions and beliefs of those with whom they disagree. And that is one reason why after 40+ years, this is still such a divisive issue in this country.

Just to be clear and in case it matters, I am pro-choice. I think abortion raises serious moral and ethical issues, but I think those issues should be resolved by the woman involved (and the father when appropriate), not by the government or by the community. I find myself agreeing with Hillary Clinton that abortons should be safe, legal and rare.

But there's an old rule of thumb that real dialogue between people who disagree on an issue can never happen until those people can each say to the other "You believe that _______," and state the beliefs of the other in such a way that the other can say "Yes, that's what I believe. You understand me."

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And no where did I suggest it does, I believe, would the vast majority of those who oppose choice on religious grounds.*

I definitely wasn't accusing you of such short-sighted thinking. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that exists in the name of religion among, certainly not all religious people, but enough that it merits pointing out.

And for argument's sake, on the right there is the lunatic who thinks blowing up abortion clinics is the answer. There is no corollary on the left. While I have heard things that implied such, I've never heard anyone ever be PRO abortion. And I've got some pretty hard left friends Unfortunately, trying to find middle ground uses that end of the right to balance off the left: legal safe and rare. And in my opinion, the result is far more conservative than the average, middle of the road American feels. For instance, if access to abortion was legal, safe and plentiful, but only allowed in the first or second trimester (with exceptions for emergencies), I think the majority of Americans could get on board. But that's not what is seen as compromise in America today. I'd even be ok with mandatory counseling about options, as long as they weren't harassment in disguise.

But back to the original subject, are Ohioans getting fired up over this issue? Or are they just accepting this?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I definitely wasn't accusing you of such short-sighted thinking. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that exists in the name of religion among, certainly not all religious people, but enough that it merits pointing out.

Gotcha.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

My pro-life stance has nothing to do with my faith. (I'm also very pro-gay rights, my church telling me it's a sin has no impact on my feelings). I think the adoption culture in our country is crap. Abortion as a means of birth control makes me very sad, because I know SO many potentially wonderful parents who are waiting for a baby to adopt. If the public psychological resources existed to helped women with unwanted pregnancies carry to term and give the baby to an adoptive family, that would be an amazing thing and help so many people. Then those same resources have to be there to help the birth mother during her post-partum years as well.

I don't think that the majority of women who are getting abortions are using it as a form of birth control, but I'd be interested to see some actual statistics.

I would agree that the adoption culture in our country is all kinds of screwed up. There are plenty of children that want/need to be adopted, and there are plenty of great potential parents who are turned down for ridiculous reasons. However, I wouldn't agree (if this is what you were implying) that all women who wish to get an abortion should carry their child to term and give their baby up for adoption. This isn't the solution. If you get pregnant and you truly don't want to have a baby, then 9 months of pregnancy, hours of labor, and having to give your child away doesn't sound too appealing. It's not as though you're deciding between a chicken sandwich or a salad for lunch. This is a life-changing decision that will affect you for the rest of your life. And giving up 9 months of your life just to give your baby away isn't what everyone is willing to do. And in my opinion, they shouldn't have to.

Originally Posted by AGDee

IrishLake- I totally agree that there should be more services to support women who might consider adoption if they had the medical means and psychological support to do so. There are so many ways to help reduce the number of abortions in this country that are NOT employed. Instead of increasing availability to birth control, education and support, they simply enact laws that hurt women instead of helping them. I just don't think force and coercion are the right means.

Exactly. Ironically, a lot of times, the same people who are arguing against abortion, are the same ones who are arguing against any form of birth control.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Agree completely.

To be fair to those who oppose abortion on religious grounds, though, it's not just that they believe it's a sin. They believe it is the killing of another human, an innocent human. They believe it is murder. The belief that murder is wrong is certainly not limited to religious people -- it's pretty much a given in most societies.

So, from the perspective of those who oppose abortion on religious grounds, it's not a matter of "I think it's a sin, so everyone else should as well." Rather, it's a matter of a moral imperative to prevent the killing of innocent humans and to object when the culture (in their view) condones the murder of those unable to protect or speak for themselves.

Obviously, not everyone agrees with that view. But if the question is going to be asked "Why don't they understand that not everyone thinks abortion is a sin and stop telling us what to do?," then there needs to be some understanding that to a person who opposes abortion on religious grounds, that question makes no more sense than asking "Why don't they understand that not everyone thinks genocide is a sin?"

Fair enough. I think that the majority of the people that I hear this argument from are arguing it based on religious reasons. And in most cases, the religious argument applies to the gay rights/marriage debate, which I mentioned in my original statement. I know that's not the topic of this thread, so I'll refrain from delving into that topic.

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I am all for adoption, but I think it's a unicorns pooping rainbows answer to the abortion problem. Would I counsel a woman to consider it, yes. But once the decision is made, then the world needs to get off her back.

Exactly.