Which Greek system would you want to join?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Having been raised Roman Catholic I can assure you that missing Mass on Sunday is just as serious a sin TO THEM as missing a Holy Day of Obligation.

But those days just involve an hour or a little more at mass. One can still go to work or school on a holy day of obligation or a football game on Sunday without any problem, as long as the obligation attend mass is fulfilled.

The Jewish High Holy Days are full-day observances that require fasting and avoiding all activity except religious observances. No school. No work. No recreational activities. And it's pretty well understood that many Jews who are not particulaly observant about Sabbath-keeping are very observant when it comes to the High Holy Days.

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

It would never ever ever happen that rush would be scheduled over Easter, even Good Friday.

Exactly. These days (or Christmas) are the apt comparisons to the High Holy Days. Sundays and holy days of obligation are comparable to the Sabbath, about which see above.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But those days just involve an hour or a little more at mass. One can still go to work or school on a holy day of obligation or a football game on Sunday without any problem, as long as the obligation attend mass is fulfilled.

The Jewish High Holy Days are full-day observances that require fasting and avoiding all activity except religious observances. No school. No work. No recreational activities. And it's pretty well understood that many Jews who are not particulaly observant about Sabbath-keeping are very observant when it comes to the High Holy Days.

Exactly. These days (or Christmas) are the apt comparisons to the High Holy Days. Sundays and holy days of obligation are comparable to the Sabbath, about which see above.

True. But if are on a campus in a small town where there is only one mass a day, that could prove to be a problem. I just picked Catholic as one of several. There are other religions which have all day strict observances besides the Jews who observe High Holy Days. I'm just curious about how to deal with those as well.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honeychile

The Muslim equivalent (from what I understand, I'm not fully versed in their culture) would be Ramadan.

I'm not sure that Ramadan would be equivalent. Muslims fast during daylight hours in Ramadan, but otherwise pretty much go through their regular day -- work, school, etc. So Ramadan per se would not prevent someone from participating in rush/recruitment. It might prevent them from eating or drinking at rush/recruitment events. Eid al-Fitr (the last day of Ramadan) and Eid al-Adha (during the Hajj) are perhaps the closest equivalents.

It's the all-day-and-nothing-but aspect of the Jewish High Holy Days that distinguishes it from the other observances that have been mentioned. A Jew observing Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur simply cannot attend any rush/recruitment event on those days. Period. If attendance at rush/recruitment events on those days is required, then that requirement effectively excludes Jews from being able to participate.

Originally Posted by Titchou

There are other religions which have all day strict observances besides the Jews who observe High Holy Days. I'm just curious about how to deal with those as well.

It's not that complicated, really. The reality is that, historically at least, it's Christian and Jewish observances that were most frequently encountered in American culture. Also historically, it's the High Holy Days that are most likely to conflict with a Fall recruitment.

So it's been a pretty simple matter: Don't schedule required events on Christmas, Good Friday or Easter, or on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Additional "no-schedule" days might be locally appropriate depending on local demographics.

As other religions like Islam or Hinduism grow in the U.S., note can be taken of what days (if any) would present attendance problems for the faithful of those religions and plans made accordingly. In the meantime, policies are structured so that missing an otherwise required event because of religious obligations doesn't have a negative impact on someone. Schools and workplaces do it all the time.

[ASTalumna06]

I would want to go through an SEC recruitment just to see what it was like, and to experience the insanity of it all. However, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't fit in and I wouldn't want that typically large chapter experience.

I'd simply like to go through formal recruitment - as my school didn't even have formal when I attended - at any school where there were 5-10 chapters and each sorority had between 40-60 members.

And having a house would be nice

[lake]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I would want to go through an SEC recruitment just to see what it was like, and to experience the insanity of it all. However, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't fit in and I wouldn't want that typically large chapter experience.

This is exactly how I feel. I said I'd want to go thru recruitment at Alabama (and maybe Auburn) to experience what it's like, the "insanity" as you call it. It's fun to follow it on GC from the outside looking in. There's always so much stress and drama! But I, too, question whether I would have fit in at an SEC school where Greek life is such a big deal.

I went thru "rush" at the U. of Minnesota in 1990. Greek life was NOT a big deal there at all (that's changing). I went thru with NO idea what it was about (besides being social), NO recommendations, NO family members who were Greek...literally I knew NOTHING! And I always had the maximum number or more invites back each day, and ended up preffing at Tri Delta and Pi Phi. It was all very laid-back, and I never, ever, EVER would've had the experience I had at an SEC school. Ever! I would've been cut by most, if not all, chapters after the first day at an SEC just by having no recs!

In the end I'm glad I had the rush I did. I probably would've soured on Greek life after get cut from all houses after the first day! That's why I like to live vicariously thru others' experiences on GC, 'cause it's sooooo different than what I experienced. All the fun and drama without a personal investment!

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Additional "no-schedule" days might be locally appropriate depending on local demographics.

I think this is the bottom line.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm not sure that Ramadan would be equivalent. Muslims fast during daylight hours in Ramadan, but otherwise pretty much go through their regular day -- work, school, etc. So Ramadan per se would not prevent someone from participating in rush/recruitment. It might prevent them from eating or drinking at rush/recruitment events. Eid al-Fitr (the last day of Ramadan) and Eid al-Adha (during the Hajj) are perhaps the closest equivalents.

It's the all-day-and-nothing-but aspect of the Jewish High Holy Days that distinguishes it from the other observances that have been mentioned. A Jew observing Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur simply cannot attend any rush/recruitment event on those days. Period. If attendance at rush/recruitment events on those days is required, then that requirement effectively excludes Jews from being able to participate.

It's not that complicated, really. The reality is that, historically at least, it's Christian and Jewish observances that were most frequently encountered in American culture. Also historically, it's the High Holy Days that are most likely to conflict with a Fall recruitment.

So it's been a pretty simple matter: Don't schedule required events on Christmas, Good Friday or Easter, or on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Additional "no-schedule" days might be locally appropriate depending on local demographics.

As other religions like Islam or Hinduism grow in the U.S., note can be taken of what days (if any) would present attendance problems for the faithful of those religions and plans made accordingly. In the meantime, policies are structured so that missing an otherwise required event because of religious obligations doesn't have a negative impact on someone. Schools and workplaces do it all the time.

Exactly what made me wonder about all this. I guess I'm sort of the one who says either accommodate them all or ignore them all. I think I might be somewhat miffed if my school allowed people of a certain religion to opt out of a day of recruitment while not letting others. But then, I come from a place where "chapter church" is not a foreign concept. That's why I veered off on this topic - to see where others fall on the spectrum. Interesting....

[TriDeltaSallie]

When I was at Michigan State, we were still on quarters and rush was in September. We always worked around the Jewish holidays. Between that, classes, and football games, rush was a couple of weeks long.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Exactly what made me wonder about all this. I guess I'm sort of the one who says either accommodate them all or ignore them all. I think I might be somewhat miffed if my school allowed people of a certain religion to opt out of a day of recruitment while not letting others. But then, I come from a place where "chapter church" is not a foreign concept. That's why I veered off on this topic - to see where others fall on the spectrum. Interesting....

Well, to be honest, I think when it comes to the High Holy Days, I think the problem tends to be less allowing people to "opt out" of those days (because how can that do anything but hurt them), and more with planning anything on those days to begin with.

I may not be remembering well, and of course there could be observances I'm not aware of, but I'm really not aware of anything in other religions quite like the High Holy Days. As we've said, Christmas, Good Friday and Easter are the closest equivalents in Christianity, but they're not really quite the same. Christians are not forbidden from doing anything not related to religious observances on those days, especially Good Friday. A Christian can work on those days. If someone scheduled a meeting or non-Easter-related event for the evening of Easter, I might think that was odd or inconsiderate, but I would not be forbidden from participating. (Scheduling something for Easter morning or mid-day might be another matter.)

But if rush/recruitment events are scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, then those who are scheduling those events are either fairly ignorant or they are scheduling those events on days that they have to know excludes a group of students from participating, and does so based on their religion.

I think the difference is that I don't see it as "accomodating." I see it as a matter of scheduling events on the High Holy Days sends a very clear, if unintended, message: Jews are not really welcome.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Well, to be honest, I think when it comes to the High Holy Days, I think the problem tends to be less allowing people to "opt out" of those days (because how can that do anything but hurt them), and more with planning anything on those days to begin with.

I may not be remembering well, and of course there could be observances I'm not aware of, but I'm really not aware of anything in other religions quite like the High Holy Days. As we've said, Christmas, Good Friday and Easter are the closest equivalents in Christianity, but they're not really quite the same. Christians are not forbidden from doing anything not related to religious observances on those days, especially Good Friday. A Christian can work on those days. If someone scheduled a meeting or non-Easter-related event for the evening of Easter, I might think that was odd or inconsiderate, but I would not be forbidden from participating. (Scheduling something for Easter morning or mid-day might be another matter.)

But if rush/recruitment events are scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, then those who are scheduling those events are either fairly ignorant or they are scheduling those events on days that they have to know excludes a group of students from participating, and does so based on their religion.

I think the difference is that I don't see it as "accomodating." I see it as a matter of scheduling events on the High Holy Days sends a very clear, if unintended, message: Jews are not really welcome.

I really think its a case of ignorance more than anything. I've said this before on GC, and it's not anything that I'm proud of, but I grew up in a small town with no Jewish population. I was into my 20s before I met anyone who was Jewish. I can certainly see similar scrnarios for women who grew up in Mississippi. As an active, it never would have occurred to me that scheduling something on these days would be an issue, but I certainly never would have wanted to exclude anyone. I do wonder how many women are impacted by this at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to find out.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I see your point. I guess I'm looking at small university town - say Auburn, AL for instance. Probably not too many options for a Catholic to attend Mass...unlike St. Louis where there's a Catholic church on every corner and several Saturday vigil masses along with many Sunday times. And probably even less on Holy Days of Obligation. So, what does the observant PNM - or chapter member for that matter - do?

Again, though, these aren't really comparable. Respecting a holy day of obligation means making sure that Catholics have the opportunity to attend mass that day -- meaning an hour or two. If a town is really that small, I'm betting a half-way savvy panhellenic (presumably with some Catholic members) knows or could easily find out when any masses will be offered and schedule accordingly.

BTW and FWIW, Auburn appears to have two Catholic churches, plus the Auburn+Catholic Campus Ministry.

I'm not sure that I can pass judgment on whether a Jewish High Holy Day is more important than a Catholic Holy Day of Obligation. Is that something each person decides for themselves or does the all-knowing recruitment Wizard of Oz make that decision?

Again though, I don't think it's a matter of deciding what is "more important." It's a matter of those setting the schedule knowing that if they set any required events at any time of day on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, they are effectively excluding Jews (except for truly non-observant Jews) from being able to participate.

Take this case - on the campus where I've been advising for over 20 years. Pref is on Sunday morning. First party at 10 and second at 11:15. Chapter has to be there at 8 AM and PNMs at 9:30. Bid Day is at 6 PM. I have a problem with this. I'm just not sure how we handle all this. It's a real conundrum to me.

I think that is a condumdrum, and I do tend to think it's . . . less than considerate . . . to some PNMs to set such a schedule. But the reality is that on most college campuses I know of, there are many opportunities for practicing Christians to attend worship at time other than Sunday morning. Actually, it seems to me that lots of campus denominational and non/inter-denominational avoid Sunday morning and prefer to hold services late on Sunday or at other times. Catholic churches or student centers are typically going to offer a Saturday vigil mass so that would allow Catholics to fulfill their obligation and then be full-on with recruitment on Sunday. With a little foresight, it can probably be handled.

With the High Holy Days, it's not a matter of whether someone can find a service that will fit their schedule. It's a matter of participation at all on those days being prohibited.

So, to use your example, Christians students typically can work around the schedule and make sure they are fulfilling religious obligations -- though some may find it inconsiderate to require them to do so -- when pref and bid day are on a Sunday. But if pref and bid day are on Yom Kippur, Jewish student cannot attend pref parties, cannot sign preference cards (?) in the case of PNMs or be involved in member selection in the case of members, cannot accept bids and cannot attend bid day. See the difference?

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I really think its a case of ignorance more than anything. I've said this before on GC, and it's not anything that I'm proud of, but I grew up in a small town with no Jewish population. I was into my 20s before I met anyone who was Jewish. I can certainly see similar scrnarios for women who grew up in Mississippi. As an active, it never would have occurred to me that scheduling something on these days would be an issue, but I certainly never would have wanted to exclude anyone. I do wonder how many women are impacted by this at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to find out.

I wonder. I think it very well may be ignorance, or for want of a better word -- not paying attention. There are lots of areas of the South that have quite old and established Jewish communities. I can say that when I was growing up in a small Southern town (in the 60s and 70s), we had a handful of Catholics in town. But everyone who ate in the school cafeteria had fish-sticks for lunch every Friday, so we knew that Catholics didn't eat meat on Friday. My kids know when the High Holy Days are because there's no school those days, even though the Jewish population here is relatively small.

I agree that few if any people want to exclude PNMs. I think for most it's a matter of not being personally familiar with the High Holy Days (as in, not being Jewish) and therefore not realizing just what the implications of scheduling things on those days are for observant Jews. But these days, I think most people should be aware. Frankly, I would have thought that all but the most sectarian colleges and universities would already have policies in place that would prevent activities like recruitment being scheduled on those days. They're certainly on every academic and business calendar I've ever seen.

I will really try to step away from the soapbox now.

[pbear19]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But those days just involve an hour or a little more at mass. One can still go to work or school on a holy day of obligation or a football game on Sunday without any problem, as long as the obligation attend mass is fulfilled.

The Jewish High Holy Days are full-day observances that require fasting and avoiding all activity except religious observances. No school. No work. No recreational activities. And it's pretty well understood that many Jews who are not particulaly observant about Sabbath-keeping are very observant when it comes to the High Holy Days.

Exactly. These days (or Christmas) are the apt comparisons to the High Holy Days. Sundays and holy days of obligation are comparable to the Sabbath, about which see above.

I agree with all of this. SLU is a Jesuit school in a *very* Catholic city, and recruitment is held on Sundays. It's in the afternoon and evening, and no one bats an eye at it. Not even remotely the same thing as a Jewish High Holy Day.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by pbear19

I agree with all of this. SLU is a Jesuit school in a *very* Catholic city, and recruitment is held on Sundays. It's in the afternoon and evening, and no one bats an eye at it. Not even remotely the same thing as a Jewish High Holy Day.

Well, being Jesuit explains that!

[33girl]

I would like to go through an SEC recruitment IF I could do so with my 18 year old body and my 40 year old brain.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I would like to go through an SEC recruitment IF I could do so with my 18 year old body and my 40 year old brain.

Excellent!

We really need that Like button!