Which Greek system would you want to join?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Exactly what made me wonder about all this. I guess I'm sort of the one who says either accommodate them all or ignore them all. I think I might be somewhat miffed if my school allowed people of a certain religion to opt out of a day of recruitment while not letting others. But then, I come from a place where "chapter church" is not a foreign concept. That's why I veered off on this topic - to see where others fall on the spectrum. Interesting....

Well, to be honest, I think when it comes to the High Holy Days, I think the problem tends to be less allowing people to "opt out" of those days (because how can that do anything but hurt them), and more with planning anything on those days to begin with.

I may not be remembering well, and of course there could be observances I'm not aware of, but I'm really not aware of anything in other religions quite like the High Holy Days. As we've said, Christmas, Good Friday and Easter are the closest equivalents in Christianity, but they're not really quite the same. Christians are not forbidden from doing anything not related to religious observances on those days, especially Good Friday. A Christian can work on those days. If someone scheduled a meeting or non-Easter-related event for the evening of Easter, I might think that was odd or inconsiderate, but I would not be forbidden from participating. (Scheduling something for Easter morning or mid-day might be another matter.)

But if rush/recruitment events are scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, then those who are scheduling those events are either fairly ignorant or they are scheduling those events on days that they have to know excludes a group of students from participating, and does so based on their religion.

I think the difference is that I don't see it as "accomodating." I see it as a matter of scheduling events on the High Holy Days sends a very clear, if unintended, message: Jews are not really welcome.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Well, to be honest, I think when it comes to the High Holy Days, I think the problem tends to be less allowing people to "opt out" of those days (because how can that do anything but hurt them), and more with planning anything on those days to begin with.

I may not be remembering well, and of course there could be observances I'm not aware of, but I'm really not aware of anything in other religions quite like the High Holy Days. As we've said, Christmas, Good Friday and Easter are the closest equivalents in Christianity, but they're not really quite the same. Christians are not forbidden from doing anything not related to religious observances on those days, especially Good Friday. A Christian can work on those days. If someone scheduled a meeting or non-Easter-related event for the evening of Easter, I might think that was odd or inconsiderate, but I would not be forbidden from participating. (Scheduling something for Easter morning or mid-day might be another matter.)

But if rush/recruitment events are scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, then those who are scheduling those events are either fairly ignorant or they are scheduling those events on days that they have to know excludes a group of students from participating, and does so based on their religion.

I think the difference is that I don't see it as "accomodating." I see it as a matter of scheduling events on the High Holy Days sends a very clear, if unintended, message: Jews are not really welcome.

I really think its a case of ignorance more than anything. I've said this before on GC, and it's not anything that I'm proud of, but I grew up in a small town with no Jewish population. I was into my 20s before I met anyone who was Jewish. I can certainly see similar scrnarios for women who grew up in Mississippi. As an active, it never would have occurred to me that scheduling something on these days would be an issue, but I certainly never would have wanted to exclude anyone. I do wonder how many women are impacted by this at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to find out.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I see your point. I guess I'm looking at small university town - say Auburn, AL for instance. Probably not too many options for a Catholic to attend Mass...unlike St. Louis where there's a Catholic church on every corner and several Saturday vigil masses along with many Sunday times. And probably even less on Holy Days of Obligation. So, what does the observant PNM - or chapter member for that matter - do?

Again, though, these aren't really comparable. Respecting a holy day of obligation means making sure that Catholics have the opportunity to attend mass that day -- meaning an hour or two. If a town is really that small, I'm betting a half-way savvy panhellenic (presumably with some Catholic members) knows or could easily find out when any masses will be offered and schedule accordingly.

BTW and FWIW, Auburn appears to have two Catholic churches, plus the Auburn+Catholic Campus Ministry.

I'm not sure that I can pass judgment on whether a Jewish High Holy Day is more important than a Catholic Holy Day of Obligation. Is that something each person decides for themselves or does the all-knowing recruitment Wizard of Oz make that decision?

Again though, I don't think it's a matter of deciding what is "more important." It's a matter of those setting the schedule knowing that if they set any required events at any time of day on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, they are effectively excluding Jews (except for truly non-observant Jews) from being able to participate.

Take this case - on the campus where I've been advising for over 20 years. Pref is on Sunday morning. First party at 10 and second at 11:15. Chapter has to be there at 8 AM and PNMs at 9:30. Bid Day is at 6 PM. I have a problem with this. I'm just not sure how we handle all this. It's a real conundrum to me.

I think that is a condumdrum, and I do tend to think it's . . . less than considerate . . . to some PNMs to set such a schedule. But the reality is that on most college campuses I know of, there are many opportunities for practicing Christians to attend worship at time other than Sunday morning. Actually, it seems to me that lots of campus denominational and non/inter-denominational avoid Sunday morning and prefer to hold services late on Sunday or at other times. Catholic churches or student centers are typically going to offer a Saturday vigil mass so that would allow Catholics to fulfill their obligation and then be full-on with recruitment on Sunday. With a little foresight, it can probably be handled.

With the High Holy Days, it's not a matter of whether someone can find a service that will fit their schedule. It's a matter of participation at all on those days being prohibited.

So, to use your example, Christians students typically can work around the schedule and make sure they are fulfilling religious obligations -- though some may find it inconsiderate to require them to do so -- when pref and bid day are on a Sunday. But if pref and bid day are on Yom Kippur, Jewish student cannot attend pref parties, cannot sign preference cards (?) in the case of PNMs or be involved in member selection in the case of members, cannot accept bids and cannot attend bid day. See the difference?

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I really think its a case of ignorance more than anything. I've said this before on GC, and it's not anything that I'm proud of, but I grew up in a small town with no Jewish population. I was into my 20s before I met anyone who was Jewish. I can certainly see similar scrnarios for women who grew up in Mississippi. As an active, it never would have occurred to me that scheduling something on these days would be an issue, but I certainly never would have wanted to exclude anyone. I do wonder how many women are impacted by this at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to find out.

I wonder. I think it very well may be ignorance, or for want of a better word -- not paying attention. There are lots of areas of the South that have quite old and established Jewish communities. I can say that when I was growing up in a small Southern town (in the 60s and 70s), we had a handful of Catholics in town. But everyone who ate in the school cafeteria had fish-sticks for lunch every Friday, so we knew that Catholics didn't eat meat on Friday. My kids know when the High Holy Days are because there's no school those days, even though the Jewish population here is relatively small.

I agree that few if any people want to exclude PNMs. I think for most it's a matter of not being personally familiar with the High Holy Days (as in, not being Jewish) and therefore not realizing just what the implications of scheduling things on those days are for observant Jews. But these days, I think most people should be aware. Frankly, I would have thought that all but the most sectarian colleges and universities would already have policies in place that would prevent activities like recruitment being scheduled on those days. They're certainly on every academic and business calendar I've ever seen.

I will really try to step away from the soapbox now.

[dekeguy]

Whenever something like this came up in discussions my sister always said she wanted to attend the University of Salamanca in Spain where if you signed up for rush:
-attendance at all functions was absolutely mandatory,
-you got no choice in to which house you would be assigned,
-and if you failed to receive a bid you would be denounced to the Inquisition and turned over to Spanish Dominicans who would decide whether you were to be burnt at the stake or just cast into the dungeon to be tortured.

She said it really motivated the rushees to put best foot forward.
There were times when I believed she really meant this not just as a joke.

[DEVODUDE]

Since my Greek Life experience began at a Big East School in the Northeast, I always had a eye for Univ. of Maryland-CP, Lehigh and URI. If I had to choose a Southern school, it would definitely be Univ. of Alabama, Ole Miss. and UGA.

ZBT:"BROTHERHOOD..ABOVE & BEYOND"

[flirt5721]

I would have loved to go to a bigger school. UCLA, USC (CA), ASU (AZ) or UofA. Although I really did consider going to Texas for a long time. I think all these schools have a great Greek system.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by dekeguy

Whenever something like this came up in discussions my sister always said she wanted to attend the University of Salamanca in Spain where if you signed up for rush:
-attendance at all functions was absolutely mandatory,
-you got no choice in to which house you would be assigned,
-and if you failed to receive a bid you would be denounced to the Inquisition and turned over to Spanish Dominicans who would decide whether you were to be burnt at the stake or just cast into the dungeon to be tortured.

She said it really motivated the rushees to put best foot forward.
There were times when I believed she really meant this not just as a joke.

i just took a class entitled "Heresy, Witchcraft, and Inquisition", so I appreciate your sister's yearning for the good old days of really structured rush!

[33girl]

"NOBODY expects the snap bid!!"