Sororities and Feminism

[als463]

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by als463

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

Unfortunately, like many people in her age group, she probably equates feminism with man-hating and overentitlement (gender feminism) instead of what it really is, equal opportunities to prove yourself (equity feminism).

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Unfortunately, like many people in her age group, she probably equates feminism with man-hating and overentitlement (gender feminism) instead of what it really is, equal opportunities to prove yourself (equity feminism).

I've known women of every generation who are without a doubt feminists in terms of their support for the rights and equality of women, but who have not wanted to be called "feminist" because of the connotations and baggage that they perceive go with the term.

[HQWest]

Yes, feminism still recognizes the strengths and differences of each gender (or trans or bi - for that matter.) As a feminist though, I don't think that she should have to put up with sexual harassment or hazing because her chosen profession is historically male dominated.

[als463]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

You sure have a knack for finding fault with everything I say. Why is that?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by als463

You sure have a knack for finding fault with everything I say. Why is that?

I don't think I have had many conversations with you at all, so I'm not sure why you perceive that? You sound a little defensive. I really just wonder what you think feminism is since you are so sure you aren't a feminist.

[als463]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I don't think I have had many conversations with you at all, so I'm not sure why you perceive that? You sound a little defensive. I really just wonder what you think feminism is since you are so sure you aren't a feminist.

Actually, you have had conversations with me and they have always ended in you being rude or finding fault with whatever I say. This is a great example. Later on you stated, "Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine." Why must I define anything for you? How do you know that I do not know the definition? When I earned my second master's degree, I also earned a certificate of advanced study in women's studies with a great deal of my courses being in feminism (to include black feminist theories). I think I have a pretty good idea of what feminism is about. Did I say it was bad? No. I said that I do not identify with being a feminist. Now, does that answer suffice or are you going to assume I am uneducated on the topic and have no clue what I am talking about?

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I am aware of what feminism is about. I know about rape culture (unfortunately, I actually took an entire class on rape--depressing course). The question was about feminism and sororities. I gave my opinion as to how some people, not saying me, could attempt to answer the question.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by als463

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. .

I don't think that DGTess was saying anything about your experiences - just that hers was much different and she felt that her colleagues had recognized her for her education or experience? Without regard to her gender?

Returning to the topic- why is it that you do not agree with feminism? Or womanism?
Do you feel your GLO experience influenced that?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by als463

Actually, you have had conversations with me and they have always ended in you being rude or finding fault with whatever I say. This is a great example. Later on you stated, "Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine." Why must I define anything for you? How do you know that I do not know the definition? When I earned my second master's degree, I also earned a certificate of advanced study in women's studies with a great deal of my courses being in feminism (to include black feminist theories). I think I have a pretty good idea of what feminism is about. Did I say it was bad? No. I said that I do not identify with being a feminist. Now, does that answer suffice or are you going to assume I am uneducated on the topic and have no clue what I am talking about?

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I am aware of what feminism is about. I know about rape culture (unfortunately, I actually took an entire class on rape--depressing course). The question was about feminism and sororities. I gave my opinion as to how some people, not saying me, could attempt to answer the question.

First of all, not everything I post on GC is directed at you. Secondly, I am never rude to you. If I disagree with you that is one thing, but I don't purposely attack you. You on the other hand are openly hostile to people on many occasions. As for your statement that I "have a knack for finding fault with everything" you say, it's completely preposterous since I haven't had a conversation with you for MONTHS. In fact, I purposely don't engage you. The last time I responded to you was in the Penn State thread. Sorry if you are overly touchy about Penn State, but that in no way means that I find fault with everything you say. You still haven't said why you aren't a feminist, BTW. You know...this is a discussion board. No one is attacking you. It's called conversation. Maybe we all will learn something from hearing from someone who doesn't feel the same way we all do. If someone asks you a question, you don't have to take it as a slam. I'm not sure why you come on GC if you don't want to participate in a free flow of ideas and jump down people's throats when they try to engage with you.

[als463]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

First of all, not everything I post on GC is directed at you. Secondly, I am never rude to you. If I disagree with you that is one thing, but I don't purposely attack you. You on the other hand are openly hostile to people on many occasions. As for your statement that I "have a knack for finding fault with everything" you say, it's completely preposterous since I haven't had a conversation with you for MONTHS. In fact, I purposely don't engage you. The last time I responded to you was in the Penn State thread. Sorry if you are overly touchy about Penn State, but that in no way means that I find fault with everything you say. You still haven't said why you aren't a feminist, BTW. You know...this is a discussion board. No one is attacking you. It's called conversation. Maybe we all will learn something from hearing from someone who doesn't feel the same way we all do. If someone asks you a question, you don't have to take it as a slam. I'm not sure why you come on GC if you don't want to participate in a free flow of ideas and jump down people's throats when they try to engage with you.

See, there you go again. You are still finding fault with something I say or have said and you start attacking me by telling me that I am hostile. It gets really old. You must have some sort of complex. Once again, I don't feel the need to tell you why I'm not a feminist. I thought you said earlier that if a woman knows how to define it and then decides she is not a feminist, then you were okay with that response. I already told you I am aware of the definition and yet you still find something wrong with me not identifying as one. After sitting through various classes on feminism, I realized that it isn't for me. I recognize it's not all about "man-hating" or anything like that. I'm very conservative in all of my views (all) and feminism does not play a part in how I choose to define myself. Does that work for you? Please, feel free to no longer engage me. I would be more than happy with that.

HQWest, I read it as her trying to tell me that my experience was different because I must have brought it upon myself. Thank you for your response, though. Actually, I never viewed myself as a feminist. As 33girl noted, before I even took classes in feminist theory, I did have the view it was all bra-burning and men-hating women on a rampage. Once I became educated on the topic, I recognized that I still identify with not being a feminist.

DeltaBetaBaby brings up a great point about TFM. If you read through the site, you'll notice that there are many references to politics and how women are treated like objects. Now, like many other comedic sites (Tosh.O), this is common. The TFM site appears to be made up of many women who come from more "conservative" areas. I wonder if there are women who identify as feminists, though they may be incredibly conservative (political-wise/ religious-wise). I noticed that when I moved to a very "liberal" area, my friends from this area seemed to identify with being feminists. My friends from more "conservative" areas do not. I realize you can be conservative and be a feminist---though, I think that may be somewhat hard to do in certain cases. It's like telling someone who is a social worker that they can't vote Republican (yes, I've heard that a lot). Do you think that has something to do with it, from your perspective?

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by als463

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I meant to imply no such thing. Nor did I wish yours to be the only voice from the American military. My experiences were very different, and probably neither of us can say ours were typical; we probably don't have that much information.

The strengths I brought to college, the strengths I learned in college and as a DG, and later those gained in the military, enabled me. What shaped your experiences, I don't know and won't speculate since I don't know you.

[AlphaFrog]

I feel like this, as many things are, is a swinging pendulum.

Sororities definitely started off feminist. I think every chapter older than 10-20 years had a time in its past (though the time period may vary by region) where it was about getting the MRS Degree, because that's what college was about for many women (Greek or not). I think we're mostly swinging back towards feminism. Less hazing, less "formalized" interaction with Fraternities (except philanthropy - which is a good thing), and more emphasis on health & safety programming, grades, and community service.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by als463

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

Not at all the experiences I had in a more-than-20-year military career. I was the first woman in my career field, and to this day I don't think there have been more than about two dozen women in the field. I found mostly respect, and the men apparently knew that I didn't get where I was by being the "weaker sex." I earned my place, and managed to put those who didn't believe me in their proper places.

I'm not sure I'm a feminist, but I've never allowed some perception of male- or female-dominated activities to interfere with where I wanted to be. Today, I don't join organizations that restrict membership. I even debated with myself whether I was being untrue by retaining my DG membership, but DG is a part of who I am.

So, too, is the school. I would not have been a DG at some SEC school, or a big state school with huge chapters ... but neither are those the schools I would have chosen to attend. I attended a small, intensive school that had only recently eliminated its women's college, but because I never questioned my right to be there, neither did anyone else.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

When I started to identify as a feminist* after beginning my Women's Studies courses, I did take a long hard look at my Greek organization and what it was doing to create strong, moral, outstanding women for my community. I found myself surrounded by dozens of them and so I learned that even with the culture that being "engaged" with fraternity men's causes, we were still leaving much better than the average woman on campus.

My chapter also took women that leaned toward being headstrong and I feel that we benefited from that more than many other chapters on campus because we were not so quick to "buy in" on the stereotypical concepts thrown at us.

My first sets of littles are some of the strongest feminists I know, along with a great deal of my pledge sisters. I'm very happy to have "grown up" within the chapter. But I do wonder about other institutions' chapters when I see the frenzies that are created on these boards from time to time. I'm not sure how universal my experience is.

*Although sometimes I lean more toward womanist due to the lack of inclusion of women of color.