"Taking someone else's spot"

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?

As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

This is how fraternity rush works, for the most part. Fraternities also seem able to survive in a variety of sizes and spin it to their advantage (whether large, medium or small). Sororities don't. The smallest is usually looked at as the "weakest." Whether this is a male vs female thing or just what we've gotten used to, it's hard to say. You even hear guys saying this about sororities - it's not just a Panhellenic or nationals thing. However, it would be a hell of a leap of faith for the sororities to, at this point, throw quota and total out the window. It would most certainly bankrupt many, many chapters, if not a few national groups.

After 150 years, I don't think anyone wants to say "oh, let's just let the chips fall where they may."

carnation or someone who has more local insight could clarify, but I think a "survival of the fittest" situation is basically what has happened over the years at Arkansas, who just welcomed pledge classes of 130 members.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

No. I'm saying both should have equal opportunity to decline invitations - either issuing or accepting. As it currently stands, as I understand it, a rushee must attend all events to which she's invited (though there seems to be some dissension on this point, I've seen the policy in documents linked from this site), but may not decline an invitation to an event if she has room on her schedule. In my mind, that is not "mutual selection".

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DGTess

As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.

What's not "perfect" about the system is NOT that the women have to meet ALL the sororities but that decisions have to be made quickly with little information. Your plan doesn't fix that. There are still hundreds to over a thousand women going through recruitment at these schools. The majority of the women going through have NEVER heard of some of these chapters but happily find a home as a FIRST choice after meeting the women there.

I love how you latch onto the WORST case scenarios and present your small school recruitment model with likely a horrendous placement percentage as a solution. Good for you that it worked and that YOU wouldn't have cared that it hadn't. The problem is that MOST other women DO care when they go bidless. We get it, you had a great experience. Tout your experience, but put the appropriate caveats of # of PNMs rushing, # of PNMs placed, size of chapters and number of women who went bidless. Otherwise your stories are just cute stories from a bitter old women who likes to complain about walking up hill to and from school. BTW, silencing opinions go both ways, so trying to bully me with your overtly hostile post is not cool.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by DGTess

Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt DG would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

It has nothing to do with the fact that your recruitment was different. Many advisors and National officers went through different styles of recruitment. It has everything to do with the fact that you have no involvement with recruitment today. You might understand otherwise.

Originally Posted by DGTess

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".)

In a sense, the pref invites are her "bids". Not literally of course. The PNM is on the chapter's bid list if a chapter invites her to pref. When she ranks them on her MRABA, she is putting them in order of preference, supposing she could choose from all of them.

Please, explain how this is not "right". You know why every NPC supports the RFM/forcing PNMs to return to all chapters to which they're invited? Because it benefits ALL NPCs. Every NPC, yes, even DG, has chapters somewhere that struggle. Working together (giving up some autonomy) and agreeing to recruitment practices (fairness) that help struggling chapters helps every NPC.

I really can't believe that you're an adult if you can't wrap your mind around the fact that if you want something, sometimes you have to jump through hoops. It's like the same people who complain about why they have to pay dues or why they have to visit nursing homes if they want to go to formal. No one forces anyone to be part of a sorority, but if you want to be a member, you have to agree to certain things.

Originally Posted by DGTess

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

You're not on the same page as the decision makers because you're an ostrich with its head in the ground who hasn't actually observed recruitment today. Your opinions are based on nothing more than your singular experience from 25+ years ago.

Your proposed fraternity style recruitment would be a step backward. Thank goodness we actually moved forward from that. I cringe when I read recruitment stories from the 80s and before and I see how PNMs have a full slate of invites from chapters who aren't really interested in them, then *poof* cut before preference.

RFM is a huge improvement. PNMs are finding homes (and would you believe it, they're HAPPY) in chapters they may have not considered before. Not everyone knows where they want to join when recruitment begins, so in. Plus, when more women are placed, there's less anti-Greek sentiment on campus. Chapters of every NPC would be far less stable and would close without it. Even chapters of DG would close.

[Katmandu]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Your proposed fraternity style recruitment would be a step backward. Thank goodness we actually moved forward from that. I cringe when I read recruitment stories from the 80s and before and I see how PNMs have a full slate of invites from chapters who aren't really interested in them, then *poof* cut before preference.

RFM is a huge improvement. PNMs are finding homes (and would you believe it, they're HAPPY) in chapters they may have not considered before.

THIS ^^^^^ SO, So true.

Count me as one who thinks modern recruitment is a definite improvement over what was in place in the 70s. I was an active in the early/mid 70's. And a Rush Counsellor. (Rho Chi today). Without RFM, Chapters, especially chapters that were very successful at formal recruitment would keep hundreds of girls in the early rounds that they KNEW THEY WOULD NEVER BID, or even invite to pref. They did this to keep excitement up, to keep their parties bulging at the seams and to get everyone panting at the thought of being part of the Hubba Hubba Mamas.

Meanwhile, Ruthie Rushee was thrilled to be invited to the HHMs, not realizing she was being used as party filler. In the meantime, Ruthie turned down invitations to chapters that were realistic possibilities...Chapters that would have loved to get to know her and perhaps, offer her a bid.

Come three party day, all of the fillers were let go, and sometime pref was a difficult evening if your heart's desire sorority let you go, and you were left with invitations you had not even considered, or worse, if you had received no pref invitations at all.

RFM can be tough on chapters (and advisors) the first year or so, until they understand how it works for them. Sometimes there is some snap bidding needed, but once everyone knows the landscape, RFM is a huge improvement. Is it perfect? No, but it is an improvement. Recruitment is more fair, more inclusive today than it was in the mid 70s. It is amazing to me how many girls are successfully placed, even when there are 1500 PNMs.

I see nothing wrong with asking girls to go to the parties that invited them. How tragic that a college woman would have to make polite chit chat with GASP, women from a sorority SHE DIDN'T WANT. Who knows, she might even change her mind. And if she doesn't, she has learned a grown up lesson in polite behavior.