States that don't have chapters

[dnall]

Look... for anyone that clicked on a recent post and failed to see it was in a forum labeled ATO, then mistakenly made the assumption I was talking about them or their organization, I apologize. I meant no disrespect.

When posting in a forum labeled ATO, my natural assumption would be that's an area for conversations either between ATOs or about ATO as an organization. I can't imagine what would lead to any other conclusion. If I'm wrong about that, I'll go post a question about ATO in the TKE section and see if a Delta Chi can answer it for me.

There's nothing wrong with non-ATOs reading or posting in the ATO section. I'm always open to outside insight on our operations. I'm also curious at times, as I'm sure others are, what the trends, attitudes, and operations of other organizations look like. That doesn't mean I read their conversation as if it applies to me, nor that I interject at the slightest possibility anything they say may not paint my org as perfect. They are entitled to their opinion.

And just to clarify my opinion...

I'm an ATO alumnus. I have a certain amount of experience and reputation within my organization. But, I'm just stating my opinion.

This thread asks if ATO should expand aggressively on the west coast. I would personally say no.

I believe, most greek systems in the far west are weak. There's nothing wrong with the national organizations or people from those areas. Both thrive in other locations.

There are problems in any chapter/location/org. There are some problems we can deal with, some that are bad business, and some (based on our ritual an objectives) that are more problematic. Some of those key issues tend to occur at a higher rate in certain geographic areas. I can't tell you why. I don't know if it's cultural, support/policy trends by universities in those areas, or any number or combination of other factors. What matters is its a bad use of our resources to go into those areas when better alternatives are available.

I went to school in Texas. I used SEC as an example because its a stereotype. There are many other locations outside the south with superb greek systems that are also a good fit for us. Those are the model we want all our chapters reaching. We're going to go to places with the best potential, as we interpret it (which is probably different than others would). Right now, most of the west coast has a very low density of places that fit that model for us, in my opinion.

If you're insulted by that, I'm sorry. If you don't agree, tell me how you have valid opinion of where ATO should expand or why. If you want to have a discussion of the criteria on which I'm forming that opinion, I can do that with some limits. Other than that, I don't see what anyone's problem is.

It's insulting to all of us that I should have to be so politically correct that I cannot express a basis for my opinions without people taking it personally. We're adults here. Hopefully with some professionalism. We can endure criticism without being offended. You don't have to agree, but if you think I shouldn't be able to have the conversation then you're in the wrong country.

Sorry for the long response.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by dnall

Look... for anyone that clicked on a recent post and failed to see it was in a forum labeled ATO, then mistakenly made the assumption I was talking about them or their organization, I apologize. I meant no disrespect.

When posting in a forum labeled ATO, my natural assumption would be that's an area for conversations either between ATOs or about ATO as an organization. I can't imagine what would lead to any other conclusion. If I'm wrong about that, I'll go post a question about ATO in the TKE section and see if a Delta Chi can answer it for me.

There's nothing wrong with non-ATOs reading or posting in the ATO section. I'm always open to outside insight on our operations. I'm also curious at times, as I'm sure others are, what the trends, attitudes, and operations of other organizations look like. That doesn't mean I read their conversation as if it applies to me, nor that I interject at the slightest possibility anything they say may not paint my org as perfect. They are entitled to their opinion.

And just to clarify my opinion...

I'm an ATO alumnus. I have a certain amount of experience and reputation within my organization. But, I'm just stating my opinion.

This thread asks if ATO should expand aggressively on the west coast. I would personally say no.

I believe, most greek systems in the far west are weak. There's nothing wrong with the national organizations or people from those areas. Both thrive in other locations.

There are problems in any chapter/location/org. There are some problems we can deal with, some that are bad business, and some (based on our ritual an objectives) that are more problematic. Some of those key issues tend to occur at a higher rate in certain geographic areas. I can't tell you why. I don't know if it's cultural, support/policy trends by universities in those areas, or any number or combination of other factors. What matters is its a bad use of our resources to go into those areas when better alternatives are available.

I went to school in Texas. I used SEC as an example because its a stereotype. There are many other locations outside the south with superb greek systems that are also a good fit for us. Those are the model we want all our chapters reaching. We're going to go to places with the best potential, as we interpret it (which is probably different than others would). Right now, most of the west coast has a very low density of places that fit that model for us, in my opinion.

If you're insulted by that, I'm sorry. If you don't agree, tell me how you have valid opinion of where ATO should expand or why. If you want to have a discussion of the criteria on which I'm forming that opinion, I can do that with some limits. Other than that, I don't see what anyone's problem is.

It's insulting to all of us that I should have to be so politically correct that I cannot express a basis for my opinions without people taking it personally. We're adults here. Hopefully with some professionalism. We can endure criticism without being offended. You don't have to agree, but if you think I shouldn't be able to have the conversation then you're in the wrong country.

Sorry for the long response.

QFP

No one has said "don't post." Because all threads can be viewed by EVERYONE, though, it's not unreasonable for non-ATOs to request that information that is available on the site accurate.

If you want to say "All of the west coast chapters that I've worked with aren't as strong as their southern counterparts," so be it. If you want to say "The ATO chapters on the west coast aren't thriving like our northern chapters," fine. You cannot say "All fraternities suck and don't follow ritual by virtue of them existing on the west coast" and expect people to pass that off as opinion.

And speaking of being professional -- You've had four regular posters who understand the dynamics of this board tell you the same thing, yet you refuse to acknowledge that what we're saying has merit. Way to stay classy. Just remember -- you're not the only one who's an alum with Greek life experience.

[dnall]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about southern versus not southern. I shouldn't have used SEC as an example. I think that was misleading of what I'm trying to express as the type of chapter/environment we/I see as our model.

I DO think what I'm saying is accurate.

I understand what you're saying - if I say west coast greek systems suck then I'm implying your chapters (and mine) in those states suck.

I get that if you read what I wrote out of context that you can interpret it that way. The key contextual difference is that it's posted in an ATO area.

It doesn't matter if it's available to everyone. What matters is it's an opinion about what works best for ATO only.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but... All our orgs exist for some higher purpose in our rituals. Undergrads are just in training to become tools for that change the world mission as alumni - just like pledgeship is training to be an active. Rush is to evaluate what a potential member offers & selectively pick what's best for OUR objectives. Picking where to expand is really the same as rush on a national fraternity level; developing and sustaining a chapter is like pledgeship.

If some hypothetical fraternity had a ritual about supporting illegal immigrants, I'm sure the southwest border would be superb territory for them.

My fraternity has a VERY Christianity based objective. It doesn't require members to be Christians, but they aren't going to mesh well with our purpose unless they strongly subscribe to a Jedeo-christian belief system.

We don't exactly look at stats on church attendance of demographics most likely to go greek. That's a huge oversimplification. But, you can imagine a region with less would statistically tend to feed chapters that drift from our ritual & thereby require a lot of extra resources for less pay off toward our mission.

From our perspective, I think you can see where places like Tennessee or Texas might provide a better foundation than a lot of California.

If you look at our map, you'll also see some chapters that seem to completely defy what I just said - places like Berkley.

We're supposed to be spreading this belief system out there to the world. There's a couple philosophies on how to do that. We can go where we can be strong to maximize our resources and produce the most alumni strongly dedicated to our purpose, &/or we can cast a line into the abyss with a few chapters. It's like pastors here versus missionaries overseas. Both concepts co-exists. You just have to make a judgment on the best mix between the two.

That's one aspect. I could talk about a few others that are important. None of them support very much on the West Coast versus dozens of other alternatives.

So, for us, west coast greek systems suck. I don't think they have enough to offer us. I'm saying that with fairly good knowledge about the region and my organization. Maybe you have excellent chapters out there, and good for you if you do. I don't care. It doesn't have anything to do with us - just like everything I've said doesn't have anything to do with your org. Which is why it's in an ATO section and not a general section.

[dukedg]

Originally Posted by dnall

From our perspective, I think you can see where places like Tennessee or Texas might provide a better foundation than a lot of California.

If you look at our map, you'll also see some chapters that seem to completely defy what I just said - places like Berkley.

I am interested to know your thoughts on the Berkeley ATO chapter, specifically, being relatively familiar with the area and campus, as well as knowing a few alumni well. (I am assuming "Berkley" meant UC Berkeley since you mentioned CA in the sentence before.)

Please PM me if you are not comfortable posting your thoughts here.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Your natural assumption would be incorrect, and the reality of the dynamics of this board would lead to a different conclusion. Many if not most regular GCers access the boards through the "New Posts" page. They scroll down and look at the threads, clicking on those that interest them, often paying little if any attention to which forum the thread is in. May sound crazy, but that's the reality here.

That would be the "New Posts" page that lists the sub-section on the right and then after clicking the thread lists the sub-section on top?

They don't pay attention to which forum the thread is in, so they don't realize a conversation isn't about them before they start talking... how is that my fault?

In all seriousness, what's the point of having different sections at all?

...Nobody is asking you to sit there and listen to us badmouth the United States of America, Otter.

nice ref.

Seriously though... that's social norming. I have GC regulars telling me: I shouldn't have a conversation about anything broader than my org (or possibly song identification), and sub-section labels are to be disregarded in all cases.

If I accept that, it puts some limits on what I can talk about. In this case, when talking about my org's expansion. I can tell you where we should go for whatever positive reasons, but I can't cite any negative reasons for not going to another region (even though that was specifically the question). If I do, I'm automatically talking about every chapter of XYZ and ABC, and I'm going to be attacked.

That limitation devalues the worth of a place like this, for no purpose at all. I think it's wrong, and I'm not going to do it.

And we, who have been around GC a lot longer than you have, are trying to tell you that that "key contextual difference" isn't nearly as key as you seem to think. I can understand why you would think it is, but in reality, it's just not.

I get what you're saying, and that's highly unfortunate.

I would never post in another org's section unless it was appropriate to the conversation AND I was giving outside perspective on what I always assume is their internal discussion.

Maybe I'll make a mistake from time to time, but I can try to respect another org's space the same way I expect them to respect mine.

Originally Posted by dukedg

I am interested to know your thoughts on the Berkeley ATO chapter, specifically, being relatively familiar with the area and campus, as well as knowing a few alumni well.

I will PM you. I don't, within reason, mind discussing a chapter in public, but only if they're here to defend themselves.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by dnall

That would be the "New Posts" page that lists the sub-section on the right and then after clicking the thread lists the sub-section on top?

They don't pay attention to which forum the thread is in, so they don't realize a conversation isn't about them before they start talking... how is that my fault?

Your ability to understand the issue is seriously lacking.

Seriously though... that's social norming. I have GC regulars telling me: I shouldn't have a conversation about anything broader than my org (or possibly song identification), and sub-section labels are to be disregarded in all cases.

Nope, not what people are telling you. But if you're going to say something like "Greek life in X location sucks" be prepared to get flack no matter where you say it. It's not because people are "insulted" it's because they think you're wrong. There's a difference.

If I accept that, it puts some limits on what I can talk about. In this case, when talking about my org's expansion. I can tell you where we should go for whatever positive reasons, but I can't cite any negative reasons for not going to another region (even though that was specifically the question). If I do, I'm automatically talking about every chapter of XYZ and ABC, and I'm going to be attacked.

Strawman.

That limitation devalues the worth of a place like this, for no purpose at all. I think it's wrong, and I'm not going to do it.

Still a strawman. Since no one's saying that, feel free to fight against it with your dying breath.

I get what you're saying, and that's highly unfortunate.

I would never post in another org's section unless it was appropriate to the conversation AND I was giving outside perspective on what I always assume is their internal discussion.

We provided an outside perspective on your stupid comment.

Maybe I'll make a mistake from time to time, but I can try to respect another org's space the same way I expect them to respect mine.

Public message board =/= ATO space. ATO space = ATO message board, ATO email listserve, or ATO chapter meetings.

[dnall]

I fully understand how the site works. It's not exactly my first time on a forum.

We're just spinning around here and it's starting to piss me off. I didn't come here as a troll trying to get a rise out of you. I'm trying to have a serious conversation about legitimate issues that I know a little bit about. If we disagree, that's fine and we can have a reasonable discussion in the right place.

I have apologized I think five times for any possibility of anyone being remotely offended by my statements. While I still think you are wrong, my apology is sincere.

I do not withdraw those statements. I've tried to clarify them to eliminate misunderstanding. If you fail to see my perspective, then I'm sorry for the unintended offense. If you do understand my perspective and are still offended, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Just so we're clear, if I had wanted to have a private conversation between ATOs only, I would have done so in a place appropriate to that. I am perfectly willing to have this conversation in the public eye. However, if I had wanted to have a conversation about the general greek community with primarily non-ATOs, I would have posted that in a more general section. My comments are where they are for a reason.

Fundamentally though, I have to ask... what is the purpose of different sections within the forum? That's not rhetorical. I actually want to hear what you think their purpose is.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

Look... for anyone that clicked on a recent post and failed to see it was in a forum labeled ATO, then mistakenly made the assumption I was talking about them or their organization, I apologize. I meant no disrespect.

Translated: For anyone who was stupid enough to think that when I said,

Originally Posted by dnall

I don't know how many "pacific" chapters you've visited of any fraternity, but they are just not the same. Greek life in a lot of places in those regions is not strong . . . .

Originally Posted by dnall

Greek life in the west sucks.

I was actually talking about Greek life in the west and any fraternities instead of ATO only, I'm sorry you failed to understand.

You're digging your hole deeper with your non-apology, and making a much bigger deal of what could have been handled with a simple "oops."

When posting in a forum labeled ATO, my natural assumption would be that's an area for conversations either between ATOs or about ATO as an organization. I can't imagine what would lead to any other conclusion.

Your natural assumption would be incorrect, and the reality of the dynamics of this board would lead to a different conclusion. Many if not most regular GCers access the boards through the "New Posts" page. They scroll down and look at the threads, clicking on those that interest them, often paying little if any attention to which forum the thread is in. May sound crazy, but that's the reality here.

It's insulting to all of us that I should have to be so politically correct that I cannot express a basis for my opinions without people taking it personally. We're adults here. Hopefully with some professionalism. We can endure criticism without being offended. You don't have to agree, but if you think I shouldn't be able to have the conversation then you're in the wrong country.

This is you not getting it. At all. It's not a matter of people taking your opinions personally. Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine by me. And it's certainly not a matter of expecting political correctness. And it's certainly not about freedom of speech. Nobody is asking you to sit there and listen to us badmouth the United States of America, Otter.

Originally Posted by dnall

I understand what you're saying - if I say west coast greek systems suck then I'm implying your chapters (and mine) in those states suck.

I get that if you read what I wrote out of context that you can interpret it that way. The key contextual difference is that it's posted in an ATO area.

And we, who have been around GC a lot longer than you have, are trying to tell you that that "key contextual difference" isn't nearly as key as you seem to think. I can understand why you would think it is, but in reality, it's just not.