Gay Emory Student Dragged From Frat Party

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Okay, I just had to check before getting into bed.....



Oh gee whiz...we've been over this multiple times, just go back through the thread and re-read what I said. This discussion has become beyond circular now.....




No. What I don't see is why anyone would ever want to suggest that a house brawl between a couple of drunk college kids is anywhere near the severity and magnitude of a woman getting raped. I did not bring up rape in this discussion.

Another poster was like, 'Hey, it's all the same right? No matter what, the victim is always blameless'. Well, I seem to recall reading a thread about a family who did not pay their fire fighter dues, their house caught on fire, and people we like 'Hellzz yeah, they did not pay their dues, let their house burn!!!' Some people did not seem to have a problem blaming the victims there.

sigmadiva -

I see where you are trying to go with this and I wish I could find a good example. I don't think sexual assault is the best one here, and I wish we could all find a better one that represents what you're getting at. I don't think you're blaming rape victims, or all victims, but being accountable for actions is a fine line. No one ever deserves to be assaulted, even if they exhibit behavior that puts them in a situation where they are a victim. We all make choices and sometimes our choice is a factor in a situation, but it isn't our fault. Anyone who assaults another made the choice to behave that way as well, and they chose to be a perpetrator and assault someone. I read Adam Smith's own words, and he said he was drunk and I'll paraphrase looking for a fight/drama. Even if it wasn't wizard hat it would have been someone else, and I think if the someone else who could have been assaulted was not gay we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

sigmadiva -

I see where you are trying to go with this and I wish I could find a good example. 1. I don't think sexual assault is the best one here, and I wish we could all find a better one that represents what you're getting at. I don't think you're blaming rape victims, or all victims, 2.but being accountable for actions is a fine line. No one ever deserves to be assaulted, even if they exhibit behavior that puts them in a situation where they are a victim. We all make choices and 3. sometimes our choice is a factor in a situation, but it isn't our fault. Anyone who assaults another made the choice to behave that way as well, and they chose to be a perpetrator and assault someone. I read Adam Smith's own words, and he said he was drunk and I'll paraphrase looking for a fight/drama. Even if it wasn't wizard hat it would have been someone else, and I think if the someone else who could have been assaulted 4. was not gay we wouldn't be having this discussion.

1. I agree. If you go back to page 4, post #47, Kevin compared the OT of this thread to a woman getting raped. That is where it got off track on the whole rape issue.

2. I agree here too. My point being, in any circumstance, one can minimize their outcome by being aware and taking precautions. While in many cases you could be a victim, but by being as diligent as possible, you don't *have* to be a victim.

3. Yes and no. I think that if you always feel that no matter what happens to you is never your fault, (good or bad), then I think you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. For the sometimes - sometimes you can take responsibility for your actions, sometimes you can't, you just have to be able to know and recognize when.

I knew this girl in grad school who never made much progress because whenever her project hit a snag, it was never her fault. She would *always* blame someone else for her problem. Example, her reports were never in on time, not her fault because 1. her garage door was not working that day, so she could not get her car out of the garage, or 2. when she tried to go to the computer lab to print her work, she had trouble getting access to her account, or 3. she could not come to class because she had a family emergency that just so happened to happen on the same weekend our school had a big football game.

All plausible circumstances, but by the middle of the semester, there was a definite pattern.

4. I think we came to this conclusion on page 3.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

1. I agree. If you go back to page 4, post #47, Kevin compared the OT of this thread to a woman getting raped. That is where it got off track on the whole rape issue.

Not exactly. I said that the characterization of this being the gay fella's fault for dressing funny was akin to blaming the rape on the scantily clad woman. Yeah, a little simplistic, but not too over the top. Appearing a certain way absolutely never invites someone to commit battery or worse against you. Never. I didn't take the rape analogy and run with it, nor did I defend it.

I had remarked also that I thought this chapter failed on several levels--both during the event where this could have all been prevented with a guest list, or even security enforcing some loosely defined dress code. I also remarked that the chapter failed to adequately circle the wagons after the event, the alumnus should have stayed quiet and referred everything to his personal legal counsel so he wouldn't say anything dumb (which he did) which could get him in worse trouble than he was already in.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not exactly. I said that the characterization of this being the gay fella's fault for dressing funny was akin to blaming the rape on the scantily clad woman. Yeah, a little simplistic, but not too over the top. Appearing a certain way absolutely never invites someone to commit battery or worse against you. Never. I didn't take the rape analogy and run with it, nor did I defend it.

Oh, don't try to back out of it now. Others had responded to your analogy long before I did.

Since I respect your opinions and views on this board, I chose to respond to you. I guess now, hind sight tells me I should have just ignored you. I'll consider it in the future.

I had remarked also that I thought this chapter failed on several levels--both during the event where this could have all been prevented with a guest list, or even security enforcing some loosely defined dress code. I also remarked that the chapter failed to adequately circle the wagons after the event, the alumnus should have stayed quiet and referred everything to his personal legal counsel so he wouldn't say anything dumb (which he did) which could get him in worse trouble than he was already in.

Like I said, we all came to this conclusion on page 3, then you presented your rape comparison on page 4. The fraternity discussion was over and done with before you presented your rape example.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Oh, don't try to back out of it now. Others had responded to your analogy long before I did.

RIF. Go back and review my response to you on p.4 where the analogy first came up. I asked you to distinguish between how you thought he deserved to be assaulted here and how some might say a woman deserves to be raped for dressing a certain way.

The analogy was posed as a hypothetical for you to respond to to compare and contrast those situations for the sake of clarifying your position. Apparently, you simply decided that the two situations are similar.

You said this:

If she went to a party with people she did not know, got isht-faced drunk and passed out,then woke up a realized she was raped,then yes, she should still press charges and those guilty should be prosecuted. But, in the end she made a bad choice that left her in that position.

That's not out of context. It's apparently your position that such a woman is responsible for her own rape because she made some bad choices. I asked you to compare and contrast and you decided just to compare.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Kevin

RIF. Go back and review my response to you on p.4 where the analogy first came up. I asked you to distinguish between how you thought he deserved to be assaulted here and how some might say a woman deserves to be raped for dressing a certain way.

The analogy was posed as a hypothetical for you to respond to to compare and contrast those situations for the sake of clarifying your position. Apparently, you simply decided that the two situations are similar.

You said this:



That's not out of context. It's apparently your position that such a woman is responsible for her own rape because she made some bad choices. I asked you to compare and contrast and you decided just to compare.

Kevin, just stop. Because, in the first place there was no need for you to even bring rape into this topic. The OT had nothing to do with rape.

YOU were trying to make the connection, and asked me my view. I told you.

You don't have to like it, agree with it, or support it. But, that was my example. Take from it what you want.

Again, the OT of this thread ended at page 3. YOUR analogy was on page 4, well after the OT had reached the end.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Kevin, just stop. Because, in the first place there was no need for you to even bring rape into this topic. The OT had nothing to do with rape.

YOU were trying to make the connection, and asked me my view. I told you.

You don't have to like it, agree with it, or support it. But, that was my example. Take from it what you want.

Again, the OT of this thread ended at page 3. YOUR analogy was on page 4, well after the OT had reached the end.

Why do people act surprised when threads go in different directions?

Like this is a new phenomenon on GC.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

1. I agree. If you go back to page 4, post #47, Kevin compared the OT of this thread to a woman getting raped. That is where it got off track on the whole rape issue.

2. I agree here too. My point being, in any circumstance, one can minimize their outcome by being aware and taking precautions. While in many cases you could be a victim, but by being as diligent as possible, you don't *have* to be a victim.

3. Yes and no. I think that if you always feel that no matter what happens to you is never your fault, (good or bad), then I think you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. For the sometimes - sometimes you can take responsibility for your actions, sometimes you can't, you just have to be able to know and recognize when.

I knew this girl in grad school who never made much progress because whenever her project hit a snag, it was never her fault. She would *always* blame someone else for her problem. Example, her reports were never in on time, not her fault because 1. her garage door was not working that day, so she could not get her car out of the garage, or 2. when she tried to go to the computer lab to print her work, she had trouble getting access to her account, or 3. she could not come to class because she had a family emergency that just so happened to happen on the same weekend our school had a big football game.

All plausible circumstances, but by the middle of the semester, there was a definite pattern.

4. I think we came to this conclusion on page 3.

Sometimes no matter what a person does there are things beyond their control and there really is no way we can prevent any and all bad things from happening. I know victims who constantly self blame when in all reality there is no way to prevent being a victim because sometimes things just happen we can't avoid. I think it is great that people do what they can to minimize situations but there are times where it just isn't rational how and why things happen because there is no rhyme or reason.

Your classmate is a victim and a perp and not doing well in school isn't the kind of victim I'm talking about. She's just a dummy and it is obvious to other people but a lot of victims of sexual and other assault are just unlucky because the perp was there and they came along. People can make good decisions with bad consequences and bad decisions with no consequences. I look back at stuff I've done and wonder why I wasn't a victim but if I had been a victim it still wouldn't be my fault that someone else decided to take advantage of me or hurt me, that solely lies with them. A person who commits a crime against another is still responsible for their actions and some situations just are not preventable.

[sigmadiva]

[QUOTE=VandalSquirrel;1998861]

Your classmate is a victim and a perp and not doing well in school isn't the kind of victim I'm talking about. She's just a dummy.... s[/b]

For the classmate - she dropped out.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

sigmadiva -

I see where you are trying to go with this and I wish I could find a good example. I don't think sexual assault is the best one here, and I wish we could all find a better one that represents what you're getting at.

OK, I've got one. Many moons ago, I was driving on a busy street in Pittsburgh. I decided to make a LEGAL left turn onto a side street. I checked, all was clear. Then a cop car came SPEEDING up the street - no flashers, no siren - and hit me on the right side as I was turning.

I was the one who got the ticket. When I inquired as to why - since the turn I made was perfectly legal - he said that I shouldn't be doing that on this busy street and that I shouldn't be surprised I got hit.

Does everyone like that one better?

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

OK, I've got one. Many moons ago, I was driving on a busy street in Pittsburgh. I decided to make a LEGAL left turn onto a side street. I checked, all was clear. Then a cop car came SPEEDING up the street - no flashers, no siren - and hit me on the right side as I was turning.

I was the one who got the ticket. When I inquired as to why - since the turn I made was perfectly legal - he said that I shouldn't be doing that on this busy street and that I shouldn't be surprised I got hit.

Does everyone like that one better?

Not really because there is no way you can prevent a officer of the law from being an idiot and using his privilege to focus the blame onto you. I argue that he is more at fault since he has training for handling a vehicle at high speed and made no indication of his presence or to avoid an accident.

Okay I have one. Pedestrian all in black, texting and listening to their headphones, darting out from nowhere on a dark stormy night on an unlit street no where near a crosswalk. Now that has elements of prevention on the part of a pedestrian and due care of a motorist driving with headlights on, alert, sober, and say below 25 doesn't mean the pedestrian isn't hit by a car, but they didn't do their part to be responsible while sharing the road. They didn't deserve to be hit but they also didn't take precautions that are expected nor were they a subject of opportunity. This has happened in my town and the driver is not found at fault when the behavior and actions of the pedestrian were assessed as a contributing factor.

We also have the dumbest bicycle laws, forreal, and most campus accidents are a result of a bicyclist or a skateboarder who speeds into traffic without giving due care and stopping while coming down a hill that is a pedestrian walk way and not for cars. Pedestrians get hit by people with a non-motorized mode of transportation and they also get cited for texting and being a hazard. There's responsibility and there's freak accidents. Sometimes shit just happens out of our control.

[James]

Kind of randomly about dressing:

Davide Chapelle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBPa...eature=related

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by James

Kind of randomly about dressing:

Dave Chapelle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBPa...eature=related

You've revealed the source of my turtleneck joke lol

I love this special

[DrPhil]

This thread is perplexing. There is so much redundancy and backpedaling. It's like a massive brain fart.