Is hazing the best way?

[AGDee]

FWIW, I am not always replying to the OP precisely, but also to others who may have similar situations and may stumble on this thread while looking for ways to turn around a program. I'm also sometimes trying to generate a discussion of the topic in general.

Generally, I think "How do we turn hazing programs into non-hazing programs" to be valuable discussions in a risk management forum.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

I never went through hazing so the concept, though I knew it existed, it new to me

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

My guess is the difficulty, in any similar situation not just the OP's, is selling it to a previously hazing chapter. If they're still stuck on "but we went through it" and "must break them down and build them up" or whatever, it's much harder to sell anything that doesn't include those concepts. We know it's possible to have a pledge/NM period without hazing, and so does the OP, but the chapter has to learn that it's still 'ok.'

The OP's suggestions of 'toned down' activities (which were at least borderline hazing by most standards) suggest that the hazing was pretty strong and that the chapter doesn't want to let it go.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

Team building exercises can be found online or at a university's leadership center. GLO specific information can come from members of other chapters of the OP's GLO.

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

I agree. Perhaps his own non-hazing program wasn't adequate enough to use in its entirety or to take parts of. In that case, I wonder what it is about his opinions and his experiences that led them to give him the "authority."

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

The bottom line is that what works for other fraternities and sororities and even among different chapters of the same organization, might not work for your chapter.

We each have different ideals, chapter history, and ways of doing things. I would gather that no two pledge programs are exactly the same, even in the strictest I/National organization.

This is really something that you need to discuss with members and advisers of YOUR chapter. There really isn't much we, the general population of GC can tell you in terms of what will work for your chapter. Create a committee of older and newer actives. Poll all members on what worked well during their pledge period, and what didn't, and why. You can do it anonymously so that people don't worry about towing a different line.

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is HIS chapter of HIS organization and he's inadequate enough to need stranger nonmembers' advice. Yet HE thinks he can direct the conversation. Yeah I think he needs to contact his national headquarters and/or members from other chapters. They are the only ones who should care enough to help his chapter and help his chapter IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ORGANIZATION'S GUIDELINES.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It looks like the OP is already familiar with a non-hazing program that works (HIS OWN). That, along with his national rules and procedures, should give him enough to come up with something for the new chapter.

. . .

I'm not sure what else he wants from us.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Uh huh and that can be said for 90% of the threads on GC in which people express general opinions that are specifically based on their organization.

The OP shouldn't be on GC typing to nonmembers if he only wants responses that cater to his organization. And the OP asked about others' intake experiences so he certainly wanted nonmembers' opinions and what was done in other organizations to potentially apply. What he asked for doesn't conveniently go away just because I'm applying my organizational experiences differently than the OP intended.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

And, for the sake of redundancy, I do see something wrong with it.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing.

If that's what he specifically requested, I hope people are careful if they share their stories. I wonder if some of his fraternity brothers that he spoke to outside of GC have been more detailed about their experiences.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

I think it might be a problem for the OP because it seems that he has failed to talk to many others in his chapter, his advisers, alumni, or HQ, instead choosing to look for ideas from anonymous people. Another person's activity idea may be great, but the execution might be entirely different for so many reasons, based on chapter/campus history, culture, fraternity rules, etc. He can get 100 great ideas, but they exist only in a vacuum, devoid of context. Not to mention discussing the pledge program with non-members.

I think that the "what to do" isn't as important here as "how we do it".

For example, I know of several chapters who (back in my day), had pledge classes sleeping in a certain place during H/I wee (whatever you call now). (We didn't have houses, but upperclassmen did live in on-campus apartments.)

Let's assume we are back in that time when "sleepovers" were not considered hazing in and of themselves. Depending on how you executed the "mandate", you can either be doing a lot of harm or a lot of good. For example, not allowing or controlling their sleep, eat, time to do homework, ability to shower, etc. is very different than having the class cook meals and eat together, plan and execute a service project, make a paddle or gift for the chapter room/house, study together, etc.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree that he needs to do the things that you suggest. But I fail to see how nothing can be learned from what other chapters do. I fail to see why it's so terrible to at least look at things have worked in other chapters and them evaluate whether those things, or something inspired by those things, would work in his chapter.

Just because that's how it would be done in your organization does not mean it can't be done differently in other organizations.

Unless his organization discourages it, I simply don't see anything wrong with looking everywhere possible for ideas.

He wants to hear the experiences of those who have been in a chapter when it moved from hazing to not hazing -- something he doesn't have personal experience with because his chapter of initiation was already non-hazing.

Some of us have strict national guidelines about discussing our Intake process period, much less on a public message board. For those who don't go for it. I am sure a non-greek would find it very interesting reading.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

huh and that can be said for 90% of the threads on GC in which people express general opinions that are specifically based on their organization.

The OP shouldn't be on GC typing to nonmembers if he only wants responses that cater to his organization. And the OP asked about others' intake experiences so he certainly wanted nonmembers' opinions and what was done in other organizations to potentially apply. What he asked for doesn't conveniently go away just because I'm applying my organizational experiences differently than the OP intended.

Of course it can be said of most of the threads and posts here. That's beside the point. The point I'm making is that it serves no purpose to apply the standards or practices of our own organization to someone else unless that other person's org shares those standards or policies.

I just see no reason for criticizing the guy just because a member of your org wouldn't or shouldn't ask a similar question.

And, for the sake of redundancy, I do see something wrong with it.

Obviously. And for equal redundancy, I see nothing with the question, but I do see something wrong with holding a poster to the standards of an organization of which he's not a member.

Because I know how much you love the phrase, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

After transferring in and talking at the brothers, some of the members realized I had a serious Napoleon complex.

I was elected, by the chapter, to the role of what some would consider "pledge master" in hopes that they could get nationals off their jock* and go get a beer.

Enough of the chapter is burned out and doesn't give a shit that they fed my ego and pretended they were honoring me by giving me a position which no one else wants.

Fixed your post for you.

In all seriousness, that is the ONLY situation in which I have ever heard of a fraternity (or a sorority for that matter) giving someone who's just transferred in such an important position. Look for them all to go alumni sooner rather than later and do nothing other than come around to drink...while you're stuck holding the bag.

*Dammit Senusret, ever since you said that the other day, I've been using it constantly, and it's really not pertinent for a girl.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I just see no reason for criticizing the guy just because a member of your org wouldn't or shouldn't ask a similar question.

I do see a reason and that's a risk people take when they come to GC for advice. Moreover, as far as GC is concerned, only the OP and the people he has PM'd know which fraternity he is in and whether he is really going about this in the proper manner based on his fraternity's policies and procedures. In the meantime we all have opinions based on what we are reading.

[djpsk21]

Well, thank you all for your comments. I have received the obvious answers of check with your nationals and talk to your members, which is what I am doing. I guess I was just foolishly hoping that others may be excited to share success stories from their pledgeship or their dealings with ending hazing...

"What works for some may not work for others" is a very true statement...so I am trying to learn what works for others to help build an ideal program, taking bits and pieces from success stories to find something that DOES work for this group.

In regards to change...there really isn't a time line as to when change can happen...Innovation must be at the forefront of peoples minds. It is not like if the change doesn't occur by a certain a date, one should just 'give up'. Considering a large portion of the pledge class won't form til the Spring, this is truly the ideal time to start working changes.

I also don't see what the shocker is in regards to someone new coming and being given the task to change things...a fresh perspective is often what is needed and if anything, I think these men, my brothers, should be commended for taking that leap of faith and turning to someone who has not been tainted by the current way of thinking to help lead a culture change.

Finally, I must say that I am not trying to "control" what is being said but I will readily admit that yes, I was hoping to guide the conversation in a more focused direction. I don't see the harm in trying to bring the conversation back to the main focus.

So, I will ask one last time, if you have any good experiences involving pledging that did not involve hazing or know of any good "team building" exercises where people are brought together, please share them. We can only learn from each other. Let ME and MY BROTHERS decide what will and will not work for us. We are NOT trying to steal ideas, but rather create a "sounding board" or "Spring Board" for ideas so we can better develop the pledge process. As I mentioned earlier, with the brothers coming from a culture of hazing...they don't know what else to do...though they do agree they want to do something different.

Feel free to PM me if you do not feel comfortable sharing here. I am not trying to start a war, overstep by bounds or be rude. I honestly came here hoping to learn. Too many times, Greek organizations just turn to themselves for answers...this is an opportunity for true Greek Collaboration to help build a better Greek future for all.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by djpsk21

Well, thank you all for your comments. I have received the obvious answers of check with your nationals and talk to your members, which is what I am doing. I guess I was just foolishly hoping that others may be excited to share success stories from their pledgeship or their dealings with ending hazing...

"What works for some may not work for others" is a very true statement...so I am trying to learn what works for others to help build an ideal program, taking bits and pieces from success stories to find something that DOES work for this group.

In regards to change...there really isn't a time line as to when change can happen...Innovation must be at the forefront of peoples minds. It is not like if the change doesn't occur by a certain a date, one should just 'give up'. Considering a large portion of the pledge class won't form til the Spring, this is truly the ideal time to start working changes.

I also don't see what the shocker is in regards to someone new coming and being given the task to change things...a fresh perspective is often what is needed and if anything, I think these men, my brothers, should be commended for taking that leap of faith and turning to someone who has not been tainted by the current way of thinking to help lead a culture change.

Finally, I must say that I am not trying to "control" what is being said but I will readily admit that yes, I was hoping to guide the conversation in a more focused direction. I don't see the harm in trying to bring the conversation back to the main focus.

So, I will ask one last time, if you have any good experiences involving pledging that did not involve hazing or know of any good "team building" exercises where people are brought together, please share them. We can only learn from each other. Let ME and MY BROTHERS decide what will and will not work for us. We are NOT trying to steal ideas, but rather create a "sounding board" or "Spring Board" for ideas so we can better develop the pledge process. As I mentioned earlier, with the brothers coming from a culture of hazing...they don't know what else to do...though they do agree they want to do something different.

Feel free to PM me if you do not feel comfortable sharing here. I am not trying to start a war, overstep by bounds or be rude. I honestly came here hoping to learn. Too many times, Greek organizations just turn to themselves for answers...this is an opportunity for true Greek Collaboration to help build a better Greek future for all.

1. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel if your I/HQ has a program in place?

2. If your chapter of initiation had a non-hazing program that worked, why don't you pull ideas from that program?

[djpsk21]

Just because this is the ONLY situation you have ever HEARD of does not make it that crazy. Are you someone who has traveled the world and is in contact with the thousands of Greek organizations around the country? There is a first for everything and I guess this is a first for you.

I was shocked to see the revision of my post as you couldn't be further from the truth. But, you are entitled to your opinion...it just saddens me that you can't see what an amazing opportunity this is, not just for my chapter, but for other Greeks that may stumble across this post.

I have NEVER HEARD of a pledge process that was "secret" as rarely are the weeks prior to Initiation a part of a ritual...rather something from a National Organization or something the local chapter has created for their members.

But, as you mentioned earlier, this may be out of your "territory"...

[knight_shadow]

Was that a response to my post? If not, please utilize the 'quote' feature.