Feds to file lawsuit over Arizona immigration law

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You don't understand.

then enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

She's saying that treating illegal or undocumented immigrants as universally criminals and nigh subhuman is the problem.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's about not dehumanizing people.

because that's not what your previous post stated.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The problems with the process exist whether you think they do or not.

matter of opinion. just because you think a problem exist doesnt' mean it does.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

if there's nothing wrong with the immigration process then lets not change a thing and keep having illegal immigrants in the numbers that we have.

there are bigger issues to resolve vs. illegal immigration. 330 million americans. 12 million illegals. a drop in the bucket.

the fact that there are illegal immigrants doesn't mean there's a problem with the immigration process. people possess illegal narcotics. does that mean the drug laws are wrong?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by starang21

then enlighten me.

the fact that there are illegal immigrants doesn't mean there's a problem with the immigration process. people possess illegal narcotics. does that mean the drug laws are wrong?

So you want to keep mixing apples and oranges. There are problems with drug laws...

BTW, are you allergic to the shift key?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

then enlighten me.


because that's not what your previous post stated.

We should not dehumanize people.
We should not treat people as sub-human.
Society DOES dehumanize and villianize illegal immigrants.
This is exactly what my previous post stated if you go back and read it in its entire.

matter of opinion. just because you think a problem exist doesnt' mean it does.

Oh well then we live in a land of rainbow and ponies! Matter of opinion. The earth is flat. Matter of opinion!

there are bigger issues to resolve vs. illegal immigration. 330 million americans. 12 million illegals. a drop in the bucket.

We can fix multiple problems at once. If it's not a priority for you then it's totally fine.

[/quote]the fact that there are illegal immigrants doesn't mean there's a problem with the immigration process. people possess illegal narcotics. does that mean the drug laws are wrong?[/QUOTE]

It's a matter of scale. And yes, our drug laws are also pretty fucked up.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

We should not dehumanize people.
We should not treat people as sub-human.
Society DOES dehumanize and villianize illegal immigrants.
This is exactly what my previous post stated if you go back and read it in its entire.

and people will villanize anyone who they want. how they want. and just because someone is villanizing them, doesn't mean they're dehumanizing them.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Oh well then we live in a land of rainbow and ponies! Matter of opinion. The earth is flat. Matter of opinion!

LOL.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's a matter of scale. And yes, our drug laws are also pretty fucked up.

some of them are. but that still doesnt' mean that narcotics should be legal.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The underlying assumption in all of this is that social programs can and do work. The inner-cities of just about every major city in the U.S. would beg to differ.

Where are the facts/stats upon which you're basing this statement?

Originally Posted by Drolefille

If illegal immigrants were legal, and all paying taxes on income - not just those who use false ID - and increase their income and eventually buy property, the amount of money going to those services in states and schools will increase.

And best believe that undocumented residents have access to funds (and I'm not talking about drug related income). I work for a nonprofit that uses pay stubs to validate income. When you have no pay stub, you qualify for a lot. Meanwhile, some of these families are driving nicer cars than mine and carrying designer handbags. I don't fault them at all. They're just being American and, truth be told, they don't have the same liberties I do. But, wouldn't it be nice to be able to get a little of that change to pay for programs like the ones my nonprofit provides?

Yes, I do believe.

but that still doesnt' mean that narcotics should be legal.

I beg to differ. Let grown folks do what grown folks wanna. And tax the HELL out of it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Where are the facts/stats upon which you're basing this statement?

The success of government safety nets is subjective, even when based on stats, and based on what you expect the outcome to be. If you expect large populations in cities to not be impoverished when they are on government assistance (as some expect) you may see the majority of U.S. cities as evidence that such safety nets cannot and do not work.

If you expect for people to simply be better off than they would be without the safety nets (being underemployed and impoverished but thankfully having $20 to their name instead of $1 to their name because of welfare) then you may see the majority of U.S. cities as evidence that such safety nets can and do work.**

**This is simplifying the issue. There are people who truly use the safety nets as a cushion and do not remain on government assistance for longer periods of time than necessary.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

and people will villanize anyone who they want. how they want. and just because someone is villanizing them, doesn't mean they're dehumanizing them.

Society does both to illegal immigrants. Just because "people do it" doesn't make it OK.

some of them are. but that still doesnt' mean that narcotics should be legal.

Jumping from "Drug laws have problems" to "Narcotics should be legal." is stupid. As is comparing drug laws to immigration.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

And best believe that undocumented residents have access to funds (and I'm not talking about drug related income). I work for a nonprofit that uses pay stubs to validate income. When you have no pay stub, you qualify for a lot. Meanwhile, some of these families are driving nicer cars than mine and carrying designer handbags. I don't fault them at all. They're just being American and, truth be told, they don't have the same liberties I do. But, wouldn't it be nice to be able to get a little of that change to pay for programs like the ones my nonprofit provides?

Exactly. The vast majority want to be a part of society here, with the rights and responsibilities that entails.

Originally Posted by starang21

i dont have an issue with punishing companies, but i don't think the line should be any easier or shorter. these people shouldn't be put at the front. should they get put ahead of those who actually have been standing in the line?

This is why you fix the line at the same time. In some ways people who've been here for 20 years instead of being "in line" have contributed more to the US than the line standers have.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Jumping from "Drug laws have problems" to "Narcotics should be legal." is stupid. As is comparing drug laws to immigration.

my point was that people commit crimes and break laws. that doesn't mean that the main problem is with the laws. it's about as valid as comparing speeding to immigration.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

my point was that people commit crimes and break laws. that doesn't mean that the main problem is with the laws. it's about as valid as comparing speeding to immigration.

No. Really. She was drawing a contrast to show how society treats people who break different laws. Rather than making a comparison that it works one way with drugs so it must work that way with immigration.

But your comparison was more apt, perhaps, than you think. Society dehumanizes drug users, despite the fact that it's far more common and far less harmful, on the whole, than they think. But no, we have to fear the crackheads and protect the children and Just Say No. So instead of working on solving drug abuse we create reactionary laws that criminalize otherwise victimless crimes and cause their excessive financial burden, while putting the guy who smokes pot in prison with far more hardened criminals.

There's a problem with drug law. It's not deterring people from using drugs, it provides a black market here for the drug cartels to sell to, and it's costing us a lot of money.

Similarly there's a problem with our immigration law, it's not deterring people from crossing the border, it's created a black market, and continuing with harsher enforcement such as militarizing our border would cost a LOT of money.

In both cases "fixing" law would be better than doing more of the same.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The success of government safety nets is subjective, even when based on stats, and based on what you expect the outcome to be. If you expect large populations in cities to not be impoverished when they are on government assistance (as some expect) you may see the majority of U.S. cities as evidence that such safety nets cannot and do not work.

If you expect for people to simply be better off than they would be without the safety nets (being underemployed and impoverished but thankfully having $20 to their name instead of $1 to their name because of welfare) then you may see the majority of U.S. cities as evidence that such safety nets can and do work.**

**This is simplifying the issue. There are people who truly use the safety nets as a cushion and do not remain on government assistance for longer periods of time than necessary.

That's my charity colored glasses kicking in. I just wrote an article for my organization's newsletter about one of our youth workers who was accepted to 12 colleges/universities on full academic scholarships. He'll be going to Stanford this fall. He grew up on public assistance and his father was incarcerated throughout his youth. His mom alternately worked 2 and 3 jobs to keep them going, so he had to take care of his younger siblings. He grew up in the most wealth-depressed community in the county.

He had moral support from his mom and an incredible work ethic. He busted his ass and now volunteers to help younger kids see their potential. When I think of low-income neighborhoods, I think of people like this young man and his family. I see SO MANY people just like them who are working hard but just can't put a hand on the money to move forward - at least not without the advocacy of orgs like the place I work.

For the most part, nonprofits just act as brokers between the haves and have nots, taking generosity and turning it into on-the-ground results by giving people the tools and capital they need to get ahead.

I think the idea that mobs of people are milking the system is ludicrous.