Feds to file lawsuit over Arizona immigration law

[starang21]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

How do you determine someone's status by means other than race?

lack of valid id, inability or unwillingness to communicate in english. whether or not they're in some sort of identification database.

you're not making a determination based on race. you're asking a question to the proper authorities in order to make an informed determination.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

lack of valid id, inability or unwillingness to communicate in english. whether or not they're in some sort of identification database.

you're not making a determination based on race. you're asking a question to the proper authorities in order to make an informed determination.

No, you investigate based on a "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status. That's the questionable bit.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

No, you investigate based on a "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status. That's the questionable bit.

so what i've listed couldn't fall under reasonable suspicion?

particularly the lack of valid id and inability or unwillingness to communicate in english?

in addition, they're not required to verify the status on all arrests.

"a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable"

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

so what i've listed couldn't fall under reasonable suspicion?

particularly the lack of valid id and inability or unwillingness to communicate in english?

in addition, they're not required to verify the status on all arrests.

"a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable"

The concern is that it would lead to essentially racial profiling as well as a violation of US citizens rights NOT to have to prove citizenship.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The concern is that it would lead to essentially racial profiling as well as a violation of US citizens rights NOT to have to prove citizenship.

i understand, but i think we're sensationalizing that point and not looking at logistics.

let's say you're a legal resident. you're committing a crime, you choose not to speak english, and you don't have valid id. so you can't prove your legal residency.

ok, so what?

you get detained. which would have happened since you were already in suspicion for another crime. while you're detained, they're checking your immigration status. they find out you're a legal resident. so what's the issue here? instead of turning your over to the federal government, they keep you because you were already (possibly) doing something illegal.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by starang21

i understand, but i think we're sensationalizing that point and not looking at logistics.

let's say you're a legal resident. you're committing a crime, you choose not to speak english, and you don't have valid id. so you can't prove your legal residency.

ok, so what?

you get detained. which would have happened since you were already in suspicion for another crime. while you're detained, they're checking your immigration status. they find out you're a legal resident. so what's the issue here? instead of turning your over to the federal government, they keep you because you were already (possibly) doing something illegal.

But if it's a traffic stop you wouldnt' be detained anyway, you'd just have gotten a ticket.

I just have low expectations about what "reasonable suspicion" will actually mean.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by starang21

i understand, but i think we're sensationalizing that point and not looking at logistics.

let's say you're a legal resident. you're committing a crime, you choose not to speak english, and you don't have valid id. so you can't prove your legal residency.

ok, so what?

you get detained. which would have happened since you were already in suspicion for another crime. while you're detained, they're checking your immigration status. they find out you're a legal resident. so what's the issue here? instead of turning your over to the federal government, they keep you because you were already (possibly) doing something illegal.

But you don't necessarily have to be committing a crime. You could be pulled over for a broken taillight something you wouldn't be arrested for the majority of the time and be detained indefinitely until you can prove your citizenship.

Not to mention that there is no concise answer for what is acceptable proof of naturalization or citizenship. A drivers license doesn't cut it because illegal immigrants can get those.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

But you don't necessarily have to be committing a crime. You could be pulled over for a broken taillight something you wouldn't be arrested for the majority of the time and be detained indefinitely until you can prove your citizenship.

Not to mention that there is no concise answer for what is acceptable proof of naturalization or citizenship. A drivers license doesn't cut it because illegal immigrants can get those.

Probable cause =/= knowing for certain a crime is afoot. An officer can look at just about anything. Race is not one of those things, but there are many other factors which could be considered in such a routine traffic stop--lack of ability to speak English would be a factor in favor of PC because someone who doesn't speak English is much more likely to be illegal than someone who does; lack of insurance might also mitigate in favor of PC as illegals are much less likely to carry insurance.

It's not a racial thing, but let's be honest, in Arizona, illegal Mexicans are fairly common, so things common with illegal Mexicans aside from race and color are going to be fair game.

Saying that you know for a fact that race/color are going to be the singular motivating factors as to whether searches occur before the law has even started being enforced is sensational and pseudo-clairvoyant. You just don't know how Arizona police will be trained or how these laws will be enforced.

If the law is enforced, will the vast majority of arrests be Mexicans? Hell yeah... the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican, 'specially in AZ.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by starang21

so what i've listed couldn't fall under reasonable suspicion?

particularly the lack of valid id and inability or unwillingness to communicate in english?

in addition, they're not required to verify the status on all arrests.

"a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable"

I've encountered a lot of illegals that speak fluent english, I've also encountered a lot of naturalized citizens that speak NO english.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I've also encountered a lot of naturalized citizens that speak NO english.

you can't be a naturalized citizen without a working (or at least basic) knowledge of the english language. so either they chose not to speak the language for whatever reason, or whoever was handing out papers that day was asleep at the wheel.