After Several Years: What Do You Think of the New Release Figures?

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It could be the emphasis on filling your bid card without an equal emphasis on NOT listing a chapter that you would NOT want to join. That explains a lot of the bid day/first week no-shows and drops. Whether that's an issue of the NMs not fitting in or NMs wanting to be in a "higher tier" chapter is uncertain. My level of disgust for the "tier" system is high though so I may be biased.

I'd say that if it further along during the NM period that people are dropping then it's an issue of retention and the chapter should be looking at what they're doing wrong.

Well, same, but I won't pretend like it doesn't matter to some people.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Well, same, but I won't pretend like it doesn't matter to some people.

I know it does, I just want to slap them upside the head until they realise how stupid and counterproductive it is. (Oh but it's ok because we're top tier. *slap* No *slap* it's *slap not. *slap*)

It hurts Greeks as a whole to perpetuate the idea that some of us are better than others, just as it hurts us to claim we're superior to the great un-washed Non-Greek masses. And it's something that the chapters AND the PNMs need education on.

The worst part is, that someone, upon reading this would say that I'm only jealous and miss the point entirely.

/meh sorry, pet-peeve

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I know it does, I just want to slap them upside the head until they realise how stupid and counterproductive it is. (Oh but it's ok because we're top tier. *slap* No *slap* it's *slap not. *slap*)

It hurts Greeks as a whole to perpetuate the idea that some of us are better than others, just as it hurts us to claim we're superior to the great un-washed Non-Greek masses. And it's something that the chapters AND the PNMs need education on.

The worst part is, that someone, upon reading this would say that I'm only jealous and miss the point entirely.

/meh sorry, pet-peeve

Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.

At the very least the fraternities encourage and continue it. But the chapters themselves perpetuate it because even if they say they know it's silly, they really enjoy being on top. There's a lot here about how our society expects women to please men in looks and actions and how women are complicit and socialized into the sexism. But that's another thread. (Or a lifetime's work.)

[carnation]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.

Yep.

[Splash]

I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.

The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.

[carnation]

I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.

[Barbie's_Rush]

And sometimes it's the mother that's the "jerk" because she won't allow the daughter to pledge a chapter she really really loves because mom considers it "sub-standard."

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by carnation

I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.

*And of course "drop out and wait for COB" is really bad advice if we're talking competitive school. If they're cutting legacies during recruitment, I can guess that they probably will be full after formal and probably never COB.

*This entire post is exactly why I think it is SO important for moms of legacy daughters to be educated on how things work NOW. Back in 1978 when Alpha Beta Mom rushed, every legacy got a bid. Today, not so much. PNM is let down when she is cut because she (like alot of naive freshmen) believed Mom when she said she was guaranteed a bid.

*And DOUBLE AGREE on the Big Sister part. The Triangle ran an article on the Big Sister relationship a year or so ago. Among other things, it mentioned the importance of the role in retention of NMs. It is SO MUCH more than giving her the best gifts or making her the cutest shirts.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by carnation

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group.

And back when mom or grandmom was rushing, a Coke cost a nickel and you could buy a car for $500. Times change. If people are too stupid to realize that - and you'd have to be living in a cave to not know there are more students than EVER, including when the baby boomers went through - then it's not my fault they passed their stupid on to their kids and gave them false hopes.

Originally Posted by carnation

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

And wouldn't it be cool if these girls, who already have the foundation of a strong friendship, would join one of the chapters that's not at total or hitting quota and turn it around? Strangely enough*, that's rarely the scenario. However, guys do it all the time. Bunches of guys from the same HS join the same group or start a new one and completely revitalize the fraternity and/or the whole Greek system. It would be nice if girls were brought up to believe that they could achieve the same sort of thing.

* Heavy dripping sarcasm.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.

Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.

But it's the sorority that decided that 100 other PNMs were more qualified. It's the same with a job interview or a college application.

If a campus decides to add an extra non-cutting round to recruitment so everyone gets to meet at least twice before the cutting starts, that's one thing. But there's nothing more special or qualified about any one girl who gets cut from ABC than another girl. Barring being dropped for grade reasons, shouldn't you argue that every girl should get to meet again? Because every girl will think she deserves another shot.

And isn't that why RFM was introduced? To help curb any unrealistic expectations that ABC really wants YOU when they just kind of like you and really want 50 other girls instead. And to make sure that "YOU" get to look at as many other sororities as possible instead of listing going back to ABC every round when you're not going to be bid.

/General "yous" all around.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Splash

qualified PNM's

You can't really use the word "qualified" (outside of being a full time female student at the college in question) when it comes to NPC recruitment. There are too many intangibles. There are lots of girls who look good on paper but are trainwrecks in real life (and vice versa).