After Several Years: What Do You Think of the New Release Figures?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.

The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.

[carnation]

I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.

[Barbie's_Rush]

And sometimes it's the mother that's the "jerk" because she won't allow the daughter to pledge a chapter she really really loves because mom considers it "sub-standard."

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by carnation

I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.

*And of course "drop out and wait for COB" is really bad advice if we're talking competitive school. If they're cutting legacies during recruitment, I can guess that they probably will be full after formal and probably never COB.

*This entire post is exactly why I think it is SO important for moms of legacy daughters to be educated on how things work NOW. Back in 1978 when Alpha Beta Mom rushed, every legacy got a bid. Today, not so much. PNM is let down when she is cut because she (like alot of naive freshmen) believed Mom when she said she was guaranteed a bid.

*And DOUBLE AGREE on the Big Sister part. The Triangle ran an article on the Big Sister relationship a year or so ago. Among other things, it mentioned the importance of the role in retention of NMs. It is SO MUCH more than giving her the best gifts or making her the cutest shirts.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by carnation

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group.

And back when mom or grandmom was rushing, a Coke cost a nickel and you could buy a car for $500. Times change. If people are too stupid to realize that - and you'd have to be living in a cave to not know there are more students than EVER, including when the baby boomers went through - then it's not my fault they passed their stupid on to their kids and gave them false hopes.

Originally Posted by carnation

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

And wouldn't it be cool if these girls, who already have the foundation of a strong friendship, would join one of the chapters that's not at total or hitting quota and turn it around? Strangely enough*, that's rarely the scenario. However, guys do it all the time. Bunches of guys from the same HS join the same group or start a new one and completely revitalize the fraternity and/or the whole Greek system. It would be nice if girls were brought up to believe that they could achieve the same sort of thing.

* Heavy dripping sarcasm.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.

Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.

But it's the sorority that decided that 100 other PNMs were more qualified. It's the same with a job interview or a college application.

If a campus decides to add an extra non-cutting round to recruitment so everyone gets to meet at least twice before the cutting starts, that's one thing. But there's nothing more special or qualified about any one girl who gets cut from ABC than another girl. Barring being dropped for grade reasons, shouldn't you argue that every girl should get to meet again? Because every girl will think she deserves another shot.

And isn't that why RFM was introduced? To help curb any unrealistic expectations that ABC really wants YOU when they just kind of like you and really want 50 other girls instead. And to make sure that "YOU" get to look at as many other sororities as possible instead of listing going back to ABC every round when you're not going to be bid.

/General "yous" all around.

[AOII Angel]

That's the problem with all of these "buts". They are all such small percentages that you just can't account for them when you are dealing with such large numbers of PNMs. So a girl might have gotten Tier 1 group to like her enough to offer a bid if she could have held on to party 3 in the old system, but that extra chance would have meant that 25 other women where led on for three parties and dropped groups that would have given them a bid just so that one girl could get her dream bid. The greater good says you let all 26 get released so that they all find spots in "lesser" chapters.

[Barbie's_Rush]

It doesn't matter if you make quota if only half your new members show up to bid day. The other new members see that. They also see how upset some of their new sisters are to be there on bid day when they do show up. The perception is always going to be there on competitive campuses with highly entrenched tier systems.

If you are an alumna who helps out with recruitment, thank you. But please understand that it doesn't make you an expert on what's actually happening at parties and in selection. The actives are the ones dealing with a lot of things and behaviors from pnms and their families that alumna are completely insulated from. The entitled princess pnm is very much alive and well.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush

It doesn't matter if you make quota if only half your new members show up to bid day. The other new members see that. They also see how upset some of their new sisters are to be there on bid day when they do show up. The perception is always going to be there on competitive campuses with highly entrenched tier systems.

If you are an alumna who helps out with recruitment, thank you. But please understand that it doesn't make you an expert on what's actually happening at parties and in selection. The actives are the ones dealing with a lot of things and behaviors from pnms and their families that alumna are completely insulated from. The entitled princess pnm is very much alive and well.

I don't know who that's directed at, but I certainly do agree that there are lots of entitled princesses floating around. I also think that saying that RFM doesn't help anyone is overstating things too. On HIGHLY competitive campuses, you may have chapters who make quota but only half of the girls show up, but I venture to say that that is NOT the norm. I think that there are many weaker chapters out there that have really benefitted from this system. From my experience, though, the middle of the road chapters benefit the most from RFM with the largest classes. At Towson, which has a moderately competitive recrutement, the most "popular" groups have a harder time making quota because they cut those margins so close and fight for the same women, but the more inclusive groups are raking in large numbers of women who STAY. Another example of how every school is different so trying to make a generalized statement of the success of RFM is difficult.

[Barbie's_Rush]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I don't know who that's directed at, but I certainly do agree that there are lots of entitled princesses floating around. I also think that saying that RFM doesn't help anyone is overstating things too. On HIGHLY competitive campuses, you may have chapters who make quota but only half of the girls show up, but I venture to say that that is NOT the norm. I think that there are many weaker chapters out there that have really benefitted from this system. From my experience, though, the middle of the road chapters benefit the most from RFM with the largest classes. At Towson, which has a moderately competitive recrutement, the most "popular" groups have a harder time making quota because they cut those margins so close and fight for the same women, but the more inclusive groups are raking in large numbers of women who STAY. Another example of how every school is different so trying to make a generalized statement of the success of RFM is difficult.

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just that there seems to be a bit of disbelief about entitled pnms coming from some alumna, and I can tell you that being on the front lines as an active is a very different experience. I've spoken extensively about our experiences with many of my sorority member relatives who represent several generations of sisters at many of the same chapters. The attitudes and behaviors we are seeing now (from pnms and families) are very different than even a decade ago. This is my generation and yes, even I can step back and see some things are seriously twisted.

I didn't say RFM doesn't work. I just don't think it's the pancea so many want to think it is. It probably works better at some schools than others.

All I know is what I am familiar with, which is highly competitive schools with very entrenched tier systems. From my perspective, RFM helps those "middle of the road" groups the most because they get to see more women who might have dropped them quickly had they been held on for additional rounds by "top" chapters. The top groups will always get who they want, even when they are fighting it out for the same "most desireable" pnms. That's really the way things have always been. If a top group doesn't make quota, it's so easy to snap to quota out of the pretty perfect princesses who dropped out of recruitment when they were dropped from the top groups. Sadly, that group of pnms is usually full of good candidates, so if you're pulling from them for your last few bids it's not a huge issue. I just don't think RFM does that much for struggling chapters, at least at campuses where someone would rather not be Greek at all than wear the letters ABC. I can't even dream of how demoralizing it would be to not have a large portion of your new members show up for bid day and to watch your new member class progressively dwindle through the weeks leading up to initiation.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But it's the sorority that decided that 100 other PNMs were more qualified. It's the same with a job interview or a college application.

But the sorority could change their mind if they get to meet the girl again.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

If a campus decides to add an extra non-cutting round to recruitment so everyone gets to meet at least twice before the cutting starts, that's one thing. But there's nothing more special or qualified about any one girl who gets cut from ABC than another girl. Barring being dropped for grade reasons, shouldn't you argue that every girl should get to meet again? Because every girl will think she deserves another shot.

Well to a point. Before RFM they had to release a lesser number. Basically everyone else could get a second chance except for those girls they would have released anyway.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And isn't that why RFM was introduced? To help curb any unrealistic expectations that ABC really wants YOU when they just kind of like you and really want 50 other girls instead. And to make sure that "YOU" get to look at as many other sororities as possible instead of listing going back to ABC every round when you're not going to be bid.

/General "yous" all around.

I get what you're saying but opinions change a lot in recruitment, for both the PNM's and the sororities. The more rounds you go back, the better chance you have at a bid, no?

[violetpretty]

I can't believe I'm replying to this...

Originally Posted by Splash

But the sorority could change their mind if they get to meet the girl again.

Well to a point. Before RFM they had to release a lesser number. Basically everyone else could get a second chance except for those girls they would have released anyway.

Yes, the sorority could change their mind to invite a girl back to round 2 if they met the girl again---that's not the point. The point is that if you are borderline getting cut after round 1 (a "maybe" that got cut), you're not ending up on that chapter's bid list after 4 rounds, so the chapter should not lead you on. For every PNM that a chapter "changed their mind on", one that was set to be invited back must be cut. Members of "top tier" chapters do like many of the women their chapters end up cutting, but there are only so many spaces.

Plus, like other posters have said, down in SEC-land and at other competitive universities, chapters know who they want for the most part, and meeting a PNM that they don't know twice vs once is not going to make the difference in getting cut or invited back after round 1.

And like I said...the point of RFM is not "oh let's give everyone another chance at the top tier chapters". It is to maximize Panhellenic membership.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Splash

But the sorority could change their mind if they get to meet the girl again.

But they might not. That's kind of like saying a job should interview their second place candidate again, even though they know who they want to hire. MAYBE they'll change their mind, but probably not. And then the third, fourth, fifth.... 345th girl would like a chance too.

Well to a point. Before RFM they had to release a lesser number. Basically everyone else could get a second chance except for those girls they would have released anyway.

So... you just want to get rid of RFM. It's been explained pretty well that this screws the less popular chapters by leading PNMs on. And it implies that there is something so valuable about ABC's membership that cannot be found with XYZ. Why should the popular chapters maximize their return at the expense of the less popular ones? Particularly when all that happens is fewer girls get bids overall. It's not like more people will get bids at ABC, the exact same number will. Even if Suzie PNM changes ABC's mind and gets invited back, you just bumped Jenny PNM who is now in the same boat as Suzie.

I get what you're saying but opinions change a lot in recruitment, for both the PNM's and the sororities. The more rounds you go back, the better chance you have at a bid, no?

No. You might slightly increase your chances with chapter A, but you will have to cut other chapters each round you return to chapter A. So now you've lost out on a chance at a bid to B, C, and D. And then A cuts you anyway. Overall, your odds are better if you're let go early from a more popular chapter if you keep your options open.

Again, this puts a lot of weight on membership in one chapter vs another which I think is really misplaced.

[AOII Angel]

I agree that it's not just SEC schools that have pre-recruitment bid lists already mapped out. I know for a fact that other less competitive southern campuses have done this in the past and may still do this.