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06-24-2010, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by violetpretty
I guess I didn't really think of that because my school does not have a liberal admissions policy and because our recruitment is deferred, so the people who really go crazy first semester and flunk out aren't going through recruitment. During my time as a collegian and as an adviser, I can't think of anyone who withdrew/depledged because they flunked out of school.
The other reason I though of voluntary withdrawls/depledging is because I interpretted Lane Sig's question as certain chapters experiencing higher amounts of depledging/withdrawls than others. Though, at a school with a liberal admissions policy, there will be a wide variety of GPAs and you could argue that the "popular" chapters are getting the PNMs with the higher HS GPAs and therefore, less likely to flunk out, but you still never know with just the high school GPA to go on. I'm not sure what he was getting at.
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It could be the emphasis on filling your bid card without an equal emphasis on NOT listing a chapter that you would NOT want to join. That explains a lot of the bid day/first week no-shows and drops. Whether that's an issue of the NMs not fitting in or NMs wanting to be in a "higher tier" chapter is uncertain. My level of disgust for the "tier" system is high though so I may be biased.
I'd say that if it further along during the NM period that people are dropping then it's an issue of retention and the chapter should be looking at what they're doing wrong.
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06-24-2010, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drolefille
It could be the emphasis on filling your bid card without an equal emphasis on NOT listing a chapter that you would NOT want to join. That explains a lot of the bid day/first week no-shows and drops. Whether that's an issue of the NMs not fitting in or NMs wanting to be in a "higher tier" chapter is uncertain. My level of disgust for the "tier" system is high though so I may be biased.
I'd say that if it further along during the NM period that people are dropping then it's an issue of retention and the chapter should be looking at what they're doing wrong.
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Well, same, but I won't pretend like it doesn't matter to some people.
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06-24-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by violetpretty
Well, same, but I won't pretend like it doesn't matter to some people.
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I know it does, I just want to slap them upside the head until they realise how stupid and counterproductive it is. (Oh but it's ok because we're top tier. *slap* No *slap* it's *slap not. *slap*)
It hurts Greeks as a whole to perpetuate the idea that some of us are better than others, just as it hurts us to claim we're superior to the great un-washed Non-Greek masses. And it's something that the chapters AND the PNMs need education on.
The worst part is, that someone, upon reading this would say that I'm only jealous and miss the point entirely.
/meh sorry, pet-peeve
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06-24-2010, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drolefille
I know it does, I just want to slap them upside the head until they realise how stupid and counterproductive it is. (Oh but it's ok because we're top tier. *slap* No *slap* it's *slap not. *slap*)
It hurts Greeks as a whole to perpetuate the idea that some of us are better than others, just as it hurts us to claim we're superior to the great un-washed Non-Greek masses. And it's something that the chapters AND the PNMs need education on.
The worst part is, that someone, upon reading this would say that I'm only jealous and miss the point entirely.
/meh sorry, pet-peeve
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Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.
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06-24-2010, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by violetpretty
Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.
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At the very least the fraternities encourage and continue it. But the chapters themselves perpetuate it because even if they say they know it's silly, they really enjoy being on top. There's a lot here about how our society expects women to please men in looks and actions and how women are complicit and socialized into the sexism. But that's another thread. (Or a lifetime's work.)
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06-24-2010, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by violetpretty
Not just the sororities and PNMs, but the fraternities as well. I think fraternities are the ones who decide "tiers", and they decide based on looks. It's sad, because there are plenty of chapters who would cut a PNM who has the personal qualities (GPA, activities, commitment level, personality) they are looking for but is overweight/unattractive/a lesbian/etc--- things that MEN find undesirable---because they don't want to be labeled the fat/ugly/lesbo sorority.
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Yep.
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06-25-2010, 12:59 PM
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I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.
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06-25-2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash
I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.
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The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.
I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)
So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."
*to the individual PNM only.
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06-25-2010, 02:03 PM
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I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.
However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.
There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.
Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.
To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.
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06-25-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drolefille
The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.
I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)
So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."
*to the individual PNM only.
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Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.
The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.
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