Shocked & Disgusted

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

...if we just stop shying away from having these discussions and actually help others out

How do you see that help in action on Greek Chat? I would say my in-person discussions are a lot more productive than those on Greek Chat because...well..it's a message board. You're limited by space and the ability of people to stay focused long enough to read.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

How do you see that help in action on Greek Chat? I would say my in-person discussions are a lot more productive than those on Greek Chat because...well..it's a message board. You're limited by space and the ability of people to stay focused long enough to read.

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

I think what I'm viewing as quick reminders, you're viewing as argumentative replies.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

GCers are a bossy group of people sometimes.

This is one of those instances where those readers who get it just get it and those who don't, most likely won't, even if preciousjeni posts a point-by-point instructional guide for breaking down the racist structure at the micro and macro levels.

I knew exactly what preciousjeni was talking about in her first post and that's because I am educated and experienced in the racism as structure perspective. However, I choose to reserve more in depth discussions on how to break down the racist structure for the face-to-face discussions that I have daily on this topic.

So when I type about it on GC, it will always read cryptic to some people. But since this is the "shocked and disgusted thread," I will get more specific and say that the messages in this thread are ways in which racial groups have perpetuated the racist structure through messages sent during this election. These are examples of how social interaction and dialogue shape the racist structure at the individual-level.

This is in the form of interracial accusations based on conjecture. Examples from whites: Obama was just elected because he is black, now we whites can stop feeling guilty over racism because that's what racism was all about (making whites feel guilty); examples from nonwhites: white people are afraid of a black presidency so we should be suspicious of the words and actions of whites--eventhough a lot of Obama's votes came from whites. Though there are power differentials at play, each side accuses the other side of something based on hasty conclusions or poorly put together facts (some of which are difficult to prove true or false so they pointlessly linger) and this perpetuates an atmosphere of distrust and apprehension. This atmosphere has the potential to cloud the real covert and overt racism that is going on. Diversion tactics make the racist structure "smile" because everyone's too busy being loony and silly over the silly and loony stuff. Similar to people who are preoccupied by looking for racists like they're playing a game of "Where's Waldo." To change it we ALL have to be critical of our language and actions as they contribute to a cycle in different ways. I'm just talking about the individual-level because that's the level that most people can touch and feel so they feel more empowered to change it. That is partially about prejudice and how people defend group position or respond to fear, however the individual-level alone will not break down the racist structure.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is in the form of interracial accusations based on conjecture. Examples from whites: Obama was just elected because he is black, now we whites can stop feeling guilty over racism because that's what racism was all about (making whites feel guilty); examples from nonwhites: white people are afraid of a black presidency so we should be suspicious of the words and actions of whites--eventhough a lot of Obama's votes came from whites. Though there are power differentials at play, each side accuses the other side of something based on hasty conclusions or poorly put together facts (some of which are difficult to prove true or false so they pointlessly linger) and this perpetuates an atmosphere of distrust and apprehension. This atmosphere has the potential to cloud the real covert and overt racism that is going on. Diversion tactics make the racist structure "smile" because everyone's too busy being loony and silly over the silly and loony stuff. Similar to people who are preoccupied by looking for racists like they're playing a game of "Where's Waldo." To change it we ALL have to be critical of our language and actions as they contribute to a cycle in different ways. I'm just talking about the individual-level because that's the level that most people can touch and feel so they feel more empowered to change it. That is partially about prejudice and how people defend group position or respond to fear, however the individual-level alone will not break down the racist structure.

My brain just said "ahhhhhhh." I enjoyed the read. Thank you!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is one of those instances where those readers who get it just get it and those who don't, most likely won't, even if preciousjeni posts a point-by-point instructional guide for breaking down the racist structure at the micro and macro levels.

If we never test it, we'll never know whether or to what extent this assertion is true - that's all I'm saying. For what it's worth, this is more of a "reaching out" attempt on my part, to try to get the educated and experienced posters to give the rest of us that kind of unique perspective, even while I realize and accept that there is no onus or tangible benefit to doing so.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If we never test it, we'll never know whether or to what extent this assertion is true - that's all I'm saying. For what it's worth, this is more of a "reaching out" attempt on my part, to try to get the educated and experienced posters to give the rest of us that kind of unique perspective, even while I realize and accept that there is no onus or tangible benefit to doing so.

Ohhhhhhh, we've tested it. We've tested it.

But your lack of response to the less cryptic stuff that I typed is a prime example of why it's best not to bother with (effortlessly) typing about this stuff on GC. It will get response from only 1 or 2 people but it's more fun and informative to take this type of discourse elsewhere.

[AKA_Monet]

I'm so confused What the hayle are we talking about? I guess I am a day late and too many dollars short...

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I'm so confused What the hayle are we talking about? I guess I am a day late and too many dollars short...

It's kind of revisiting the racism stuff you and I discussed earlier. This time KSig was telling preciousjeni to be less cryptic and less appealing to a higher authority in her racism postings. But he meant that in theory than practice because he didn't really want a more detailed post.

[starang21]

i like capitalism.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

It's an enormous task that would require our entire nation to be on-board and willing to come to terms with their own status as well as determining what sacrifices they'd be willing to make. For one, there has to be a massive redistribution of resources (not just money) that is hindered by capitalism. I'm not saying that we should move entirely away from capitalism to another extreme; rather that capitalism inherently drives a bigger and bigger wedge between the haves and have-nots. Capitalism favors those who have accrued wealth/resources or those who have the ability to pool resources toward a common goal.

i wouldn't make any sacrifices.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by starang21

i wouldn't make any sacrifices.

lol

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It's kind of revisiting the racism stuff you and I discussed earlier. This time KSig was telling preciousjeni to be less cryptic and less appealing to a higher authority in her racism postings. But he meant that in theory than practice because he didn't really want a more detailed post.

Nice ad hominem - even if this is true (I'll say it's not and find it insulting, you'll disagree for basically the same reasons), it doesn't make me wrong. Logical fallacies ahoy!

I'll take the bait - my short response before was to allow some time to ruminate . . . surely that's allowed?

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So when I type about it on GC, it will always read cryptic to some people. But since this is the "shocked and disgusted thread," I will get more specific and say that the messages in this thread are ways in which racial groups have perpetuated the racist structure through messages sent during this election. These are examples of how social interaction and dialogue shape the racist structure at the individual-level.

I agree completely, and this is exactly what I wanted to be spelled out. This is something that people need to have handed to them, it's not something they'll automatically intuit on their own (or even extrapolate when given the facts). This is, in my opinion, a combination of confirmation bias and the clouding effect of personal experience, along with a heavy dose of cognitive dissonance - after all, no one wants to feel "racist" (properly, prejudiced).

I ask for this because research indicates that people only account for racial bias in decision making (the only studies I can cite offhand involve jury decision making, but this is generally applicable to other areas) when we literally and strongly ask them to. For example, most whites simply don't think about the white power structure - after all, things seem to work out fine, and most feel like they treat minorities "fine" on an individual level, so surely they're not part of the problem, right?

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is in the form of interracial accusations based on conjecture. Examples from whites: Obama was just elected because he is black, now we whites can stop feeling guilty over racism because that's what racism was all about (making whites feel guilty); examples from nonwhites: white people are afraid of a black presidency so we should be suspicious of the words and actions of whites--even though a lot of Obama's votes came from whites.

This is one reason why many discounted the so-called "Bradley Effect" at the polls (the former, obviously).

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Though there are power differentials at play, each side accuses the other side of something based on hasty conclusions or poorly put together facts (some of which are difficult to prove true or false so they pointlessly linger) and this perpetuates an atmosphere of distrust and apprehension. This atmosphere has the potential to cloud the real covert and overt racism that is going on. Diversion tactics make the racist structure "smile" because everyone's too busy being loony and silly over the silly and loony stuff. Similar to people who are preoccupied by looking for racists like they're playing a game of "Where's Waldo."

This exact reasoning is why I think it's important and useful to have a "low-yield" conversation on race and race relations in the United States. It's far too easy for someone to say "I'm not a racist! Racism is going away!" then follow an inane sort of reasoning like:

"50% of incarcerated males are black, even though 20% of the local male population is black - but black males are also, according to statistics, more likely to participate in drug use or gang activity, and so I won't worry about the disparity."

It's this sort of semi-logic that reminds me most of the "Where's Waldo?" example, and I feel it's an endemic flaw. I doubt you disagree, but it appears you're resigned to this, and would rather accuse me of being short-sighted than tell me more about it. That's fair - it's not your job to help me out.

I guess that also reveals something additional about my motives for even continuing this discussion - one of my worries is that the global joy over how "progressive" it is to have a black President in the US will allow a sort of 'resting on the laurels' for people who otherwise have the ability to make a difference.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

To change it we ALL have to be critical of our language and actions as they contribute to a cycle in different ways. I'm just talking about the individual-level because that's the level that most people can touch and feel so they feel more empowered to change it. That is partially about prejudice and how people defend group position or respond to fear, however the individual-level alone will not break down the racist structure.

I think this is the most important and salient paragraph of the thread.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Nice ad hominem - even if this is true (I'll say it's not and find it insulting, you'll disagree for basically the same reasons), it doesn't make me wrong. Logical fallacies ahoy!

I didn't say you were wrong. I was mostly teasing because people ask for something they don't really have the time or desire to deal with all the time. That's all. No biggie.

But I really didn't think you, personally, needed it to be broken down and your response shows that you pretty much knew all of that stuff already.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

But I really didn't think you, personally, needed it to be broken down and your response shows that you pretty much knew all of that stuff already.

I don't know whether or not this is true, but I think we'd go a long way toward eliminating the distaste for these sorts of discussions if those who have the background and training contributed in a more direct fashion - that's all I'm saying/asking/pleading/praying.

As I've often said - this discussion would be better if I were.