Shocked & Disgusted

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I can only assume that it would be a stop sign because it makes people uncomfortable. Otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue. No one need feel uncomfortable.

Right, and repeated appeal to authority can lead to discomfort, because people feel intimidated or condescended to.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

You left out intentional. And, yes, a possible way to correct it would be to reverse the process. But, we have no reversal. We have small victories won in spite of the institutional barriers.

I find that people mislabel prejudice as racism and believe that the issue is solely interpersonal. If we don't understand what racism is, how can we possibly correct it?

"Intentional" was only left out because I took it as a given, but wholeheartedly endorse its inclusion.

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Right, and repeated appeal to authority can lead to discomfort, because people feel intimidated or condescended to.

People don't need to feel intimidated or condescended to (and I know you aren't talking about yourself). I can't control how someone else feels about a general statement.

"Intentional" was only left out because I took it as a given, but wholeheartedly endorse its inclusion.

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

The definitions have been discussed at length on Greek Chat. If that weren't true, the "shorthand" wouldn't really be relevant.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

People don't need to feel intimidated or condescended to (and I know you aren't talking about yourself). I can't control how someone else feels about a general statement.

All I'm asking is that, instead of laying an appeal to authority on the crowd, you just go into a little more detail to defend your position, and perhaps that we focus more on active roles/issues than nuance or purely academic/semantic issues. Fair? You're much better educated on these issues than most, and your information and viewpoint could be awesome, if we just stop shying away from having these discussions and actually help others out.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

...if we just stop shying away from having these discussions and actually help others out

How do you see that help in action on Greek Chat? I would say my in-person discussions are a lot more productive than those on Greek Chat because...well..it's a message board. You're limited by space and the ability of people to stay focused long enough to read.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

How do you see that help in action on Greek Chat? I would say my in-person discussions are a lot more productive than those on Greek Chat because...well..it's a message board. You're limited by space and the ability of people to stay focused long enough to read.

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

I think what I'm viewing as quick reminders, you're viewing as argumentative replies.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Yet you continuously provide very erudite critique of terminology - what I'm saying is that you'll have a limited amount of time and effort to put into this, so why waste any of it with semantic arguments, or argument for its own sake?

GCers are a bossy group of people sometimes.

This is one of those instances where those readers who get it just get it and those who don't, most likely won't, even if preciousjeni posts a point-by-point instructional guide for breaking down the racist structure at the micro and macro levels.

I knew exactly what preciousjeni was talking about in her first post and that's because I am educated and experienced in the racism as structure perspective. However, I choose to reserve more in depth discussions on how to break down the racist structure for the face-to-face discussions that I have daily on this topic.

So when I type about it on GC, it will always read cryptic to some people. But since this is the "shocked and disgusted thread," I will get more specific and say that the messages in this thread are ways in which racial groups have perpetuated the racist structure through messages sent during this election. These are examples of how social interaction and dialogue shape the racist structure at the individual-level.

This is in the form of interracial accusations based on conjecture. Examples from whites: Obama was just elected because he is black, now we whites can stop feeling guilty over racism because that's what racism was all about (making whites feel guilty); examples from nonwhites: white people are afraid of a black presidency so we should be suspicious of the words and actions of whites--eventhough a lot of Obama's votes came from whites. Though there are power differentials at play, each side accuses the other side of something based on hasty conclusions or poorly put together facts (some of which are difficult to prove true or false so they pointlessly linger) and this perpetuates an atmosphere of distrust and apprehension. This atmosphere has the potential to cloud the real covert and overt racism that is going on. Diversion tactics make the racist structure "smile" because everyone's too busy being loony and silly over the silly and loony stuff. Similar to people who are preoccupied by looking for racists like they're playing a game of "Where's Waldo." To change it we ALL have to be critical of our language and actions as they contribute to a cycle in different ways. I'm just talking about the individual-level because that's the level that most people can touch and feel so they feel more empowered to change it. That is partially about prejudice and how people defend group position or respond to fear, however the individual-level alone will not break down the racist structure.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is in the form of interracial accusations based on conjecture. Examples from whites: Obama was just elected because he is black, now we whites can stop feeling guilty over racism because that's what racism was all about (making whites feel guilty); examples from nonwhites: white people are afraid of a black presidency so we should be suspicious of the words and actions of whites--eventhough a lot of Obama's votes came from whites. Though there are power differentials at play, each side accuses the other side of something based on hasty conclusions or poorly put together facts (some of which are difficult to prove true or false so they pointlessly linger) and this perpetuates an atmosphere of distrust and apprehension. This atmosphere has the potential to cloud the real covert and overt racism that is going on. Diversion tactics make the racist structure "smile" because everyone's too busy being loony and silly over the silly and loony stuff. Similar to people who are preoccupied by looking for racists like they're playing a game of "Where's Waldo." To change it we ALL have to be critical of our language and actions as they contribute to a cycle in different ways. I'm just talking about the individual-level because that's the level that most people can touch and feel so they feel more empowered to change it. That is partially about prejudice and how people defend group position or respond to fear, however the individual-level alone will not break down the racist structure.

My brain just said "ahhhhhhh." I enjoyed the read. Thank you!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is one of those instances where those readers who get it just get it and those who don't, most likely won't, even if preciousjeni posts a point-by-point instructional guide for breaking down the racist structure at the micro and macro levels.

If we never test it, we'll never know whether or to what extent this assertion is true - that's all I'm saying. For what it's worth, this is more of a "reaching out" attempt on my part, to try to get the educated and experienced posters to give the rest of us that kind of unique perspective, even while I realize and accept that there is no onus or tangible benefit to doing so.