Shocked & Disgusted

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Ya know, lovepink88, I agree with you 100%, but unfortunately racists, sick human beings are going to be here until hell freezes over, and that's because racism is a human made, human enforced phenomenon. No one is born racist, it's a learned behavior and learned emotions on the part of a group of people towards another group whose physical characteristics are dissimilar to the former group.

Prejudice is learned. Racism is purposefully built into a system over time. Prejudice is annoying and sometimes dangerous depending on how people act on it. But, racism is a widely destructive force that is impossible to get out of the system without overhauling everything. A lot of people wouldn't like the results of that overhaul though.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Prejudice is learned. Racism is purposefully built into a system over time. Prejudice is annoying and sometimes dangerous depending on how people act on it. But, racism is a widely destructive force that is impossible to get out of the system without overhauling everything. A lot of people wouldn't like the results of that overhaul though.

You've really got to stop these kinds of cryptic appeals to authority - not because you're necessarily wrong (although it is fallacious to presume that you're 100% correct based on the appeal), but because it serves as a giant stop sign for interaction in these sorts of threads.

While I mostly agree with the definitions you've outlined above, I openly question what constitutes a "complete overhaul" (and, in a related fashion, why you find it necessary to note that a lot of people wouldn't "like the results" but seem unwilling to identify whom or why) and why you have such a stark view of gradual change to a system. Racism was not instituted in a traumatic or instantaneous fashion, but rather gradually, over time, and in a robust and institutional way. Wouldn't the proper way to fight it be exactly the same?

[preciousjeni]

...it serves as a giant stop sign for interaction in these sorts of threads

I can only assume that it would be a stop sign because it makes people uncomfortable. Otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue. No one need feel uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I openly question what constitutes a "complete overhaul"

It's an enormous task that would require our entire nation to be on-board and willing to come to terms with their own status as well as determining what sacrifices they'd be willing to make. For one, there has to be a massive redistribution of resources (not just money) that is hindered by capitalism. I'm not saying that we should move entirely away from capitalism to another extreme; rather that capitalism inherently drives a bigger and bigger wedge between the haves and have-nots. Capitalism favors those who have accrued wealth/resources or those who have the ability to pool resources toward a common goal.

why you have such a stark view of gradual change to a system.

Not a stark view. I'd just prefer that the change be a coordinated effort rather than a happenstance. Much energy is wasted tackling hurdles that could be removed altogether if we all decided enough was enough. I would say the same for classism as well, except that I wasn't talking about classism to begin with.

Racism was not instituted in a traumatic or instantaneous fashion, but rather gradually, over time, and in a robust and institutional way. Wouldn't the proper way to fight it be exactly the same?

You left out intentional. And, yes, a possible way to correct it would be to reverse the process. But, we have no reversal. We have small victories won in spite of the institutional barriers.

I find that people mislabel prejudice as racism and believe that the issue is solely interpersonal. If we don't understand what racism is, how can we possibly correct it?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I can only assume that it would be a stop sign because it makes people uncomfortable. Otherwise, it shouldn't be an issue. No one need feel uncomfortable.

Right, and repeated appeal to authority can lead to discomfort, because people feel intimidated or condescended to.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

You left out intentional. And, yes, a possible way to correct it would be to reverse the process. But, we have no reversal. We have small victories won in spite of the institutional barriers.

I find that people mislabel prejudice as racism and believe that the issue is solely interpersonal. If we don't understand what racism is, how can we possibly correct it?

"Intentional" was only left out because I took it as a given, but wholeheartedly endorse its inclusion.

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Right, and repeated appeal to authority can lead to discomfort, because people feel intimidated or condescended to.

People don't need to feel intimidated or condescended to (and I know you aren't talking about yourself). I can't control how someone else feels about a general statement.

"Intentional" was only left out because I took it as a given, but wholeheartedly endorse its inclusion.

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I agree with you that it's important to define our terms for any discussion, but the use of shorthand doesn't constantly require us to shift the sands of the debate or give a brief, incomplete educational sermon on what is or isn't "racism" in the classical sense, does it?

The definitions have been discussed at length on Greek Chat. If that weren't true, the "shorthand" wouldn't really be relevant.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

People don't need to feel intimidated or condescended to (and I know you aren't talking about yourself). I can't control how someone else feels about a general statement.

All I'm asking is that, instead of laying an appeal to authority on the crowd, you just go into a little more detail to defend your position, and perhaps that we focus more on active roles/issues than nuance or purely academic/semantic issues. Fair? You're much better educated on these issues than most, and your information and viewpoint could be awesome, if we just stop shying away from having these discussions and actually help others out.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

...if we just stop shying away from having these discussions and actually help others out

How do you see that help in action on Greek Chat? I would say my in-person discussions are a lot more productive than those on Greek Chat because...well..it's a message board. You're limited by space and the ability of people to stay focused long enough to read.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

It's an enormous task that would require our entire nation to be on-board and willing to come to terms with their own status as well as determining what sacrifices they'd be willing to make. For one, there has to be a massive redistribution of resources (not just money) that is hindered by capitalism. I'm not saying that we should move entirely away from capitalism to another extreme; rather that capitalism inherently drives a bigger and bigger wedge between the haves and have-nots. Capitalism favors those who have accrued wealth/resources or those who have the ability to pool resources toward a common goal.

i wouldn't make any sacrifices.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by starang21

i wouldn't make any sacrifices.

lol