The Devil's Advocate: Imus/Rap industry

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Little32

Exactly. You can't see my point, mostly because you don't want to, and so I am done with you in regards to this matter.

I see your point, I disagree with it. You apparently have a severe problem with someone opposing your viewpoints, and so it isn't surprising that you're "done with [me]." Thanks for the conversation.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by unspokenone25

Same can be said about you.

That I never cease to amaze? Kind words, thank you.

[unspokenone25]

If you want to take it that way but you're smart (and ignorant) enough to know it wasn't a compliment.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by unspokenone25

If you want to take it that way but you're smart (and ignorant) enough to know it wasn't a compliment.

I don't really know where ignorance ties in...but sure, I know it wasn't a compliment. If you want reassurance that your insult got through, yes, I'm well aware that was your mission. Hopefully that'll put your mind at ease.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm not sure it would conclusively show that either, but I do think the anger is on a smaller scale and generally less intense. Actually, I think it makes sense that it would be, because I think black people are likely personally impacted less when they take action to get someone like Imus fired.

I wouldn't judge thge reality of how people feel by news coverage, which is meant to be sensational and attention-grabbing. I doubt that any Black scholars will be writing books about racism and outrageous radio personalities or psycho comedians, but many books have addressed misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop. Black people in the various communities I interact with regularly did not spend much time talking about Imus in our homes and with our friends (It was more just "Have you heard..."), but I've spent hours in heated conversations about misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop with Black people in all socio-economic situations.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I didn't see protests outside BET regarding "Uncut". If I wanted things like Uncut off the air, I'd agree, its a step in the right direction, but I still think its quite distinct from situations like the Imus one. Goes back to intensity. Also, that music is still out there, being played all the time, listened to by tons of people (whites too, I know). The images are gone (to a degree), but the message is clearly still out there. Is there a large scale movement to get all the offensive rap off the airwaves?

Once again, I don't want all offensive rap music off the air, just like I don't want offensive people like Imus off the air.

I also don't advocate censorship, but people who do surely recognize that getting all offensive rap off the airwaves is not a realistic endeavor, especially considering the enormous amount of money made by it, mostly off of White youth.

I do think that Black men are generally less angry about misogyny than they are about racism, but I think that is to be expected. Unfortunately Black male voices are often seen as the only (important) Black voices.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

I wouldn't judge thge reality of how people feel by news coverage, which is meant to be sensational and attention-grabbing. I doubt that any Black scholars will be writing books about racism and outrageous radio personalities or psycho comedians, but many books have addressed misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop. Black people in the various communities I interact with regularly did not spend much time talking about Imus in our homes and with our friends (It was more just "Have you heard..."), but I've spent hours in heated conversations about misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop with Black people in all socio-economic situations.



I also don't advocate censorship, but people who do surely recognize that getting all offensive rap off the airwaves is not a realistic endeavor, especially considering the enormous amount of money made by it, mostly off of White youth.

I do think that Black men are generally less angry about misogyny than they are about racism, but I think that is to be expected. Unfortunately Black male voices are often seen as the only (important) Black voices.

I agree with this. I don't judge on entirely on media coverage. But lets be honest. I can say "you know, most people I know could give a damn about Anna Nicole", but people still do care, the discussion is out there. Thats why I say its tough for yall (and me, in other matters) to say that our surroundings and are feelings are reflective of society at large.

Also, regarding rap censorship, I agree, I don't want to change it. Now, if its BET Uncut at 3pm on weekdays, sure, that should probably be altered. Also, the content of rap as a whole generally conflicts with what I would believe in, but still, I don't feel that warrants it being taken out of the public arena. However, I don't feel that just because of its popularity there shouldn't be a level of outrage. I do agree, its not that feasible, but I don't think that removes it from the valid comparison category. I don't think the reason for a lack of protest regarding rap is the fact that its not feasible to get rid of it. I think that may impact some people's decisions, but I think there are more pervasive factors. I simply think that people aren't as offended by rap, and therefore less action is taken. The question then becomes, why aren't they as offended? I think there are many people who would give lipservice, saying sure, it offends me, but thats where the protest ends. I think this contrasts greatly with the Duke or Imus situation, wherein lies the double standard, at least from my perspective.

Sorry if thats not overly intelligible, stream of consciousness, if you will.

[unspokenone25]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I don't really know where ignorance ties in...but sure, I know it wasn't a compliment. If you want reassurance that your insult got through, yes, I'm well aware that was your mission. Hopefully that'll put your mind at ease.

Shinerbock, it wasn't intended to be an insult. It was more of a statement. It never ceases to amaze me that when black people on GC get upset or heated about something in the black community, you always find the time to come into our respective forums and comment with a conservative tone and overview. I called you ignorant because obviously you have had a sheltered life and thus, have a limited view and perspective. I called you smart because you do make valid points from time to time.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by unspokenone25

Shinerbock, it wasn't intended to be an insult. It was more of a statement. It never ceases to amaze me that when black people on GC get upset or heated about something in the black community, you always find the time to come into our respective forums and comment with a conservative tone and overview. I called you ignorant because obviously you have had a sheltered life and thus, have a limited view and perspective. I called you smart because you do make valid points from time to time.

Listen, you can insult me if you'd like. I don't think you're a person to do that nor do I think it was your intention to. However, it doesn't bother me, so don't feel I was attempting to make you feel bad for stating what you did.

Hey, if you would prefer to argue this amongst yourselves, I'd be happy to leave you to it. I've made similar disclaimers in the past.

Your assertion of ignorance is correct to a degree. I don't understand what its like to be black, just as you're likely ignorant on my feelings (and of other white people) when it comes to racial discussions and the perception of a double standard. I haven't lived a sheltered life, however. Also, my viewpoint is limited, like is yours. However, I'm able to see many sides of an issue, the fact that I take a position doesn't indicate that I'm close minded. It indicates that I'm highly opinionated.

Simply because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not considering your viewpoint. It means I like mine better.

[unspokenone25]

I only insult when it is warranted. This isn't the case.

Besides everyone is entitled to an opinion on GC (unless you're a troll). Healthy dialogue, frank and honest conversations with open-minded people are good. Conversations with sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigots are not. So, let's keep the conversation moving! (Sorry for the hijack!!)

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by unspokenone25

I only insult when it is warranted. This isn't the case.

Besides everyone is entitled to an opinion on GC (unless you're a troll). Healthy dialogue, frank and honest conversations with open-minded people are good. Conversations with sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigots are not. So, let's keep the conversation moving!

Well I'm egotistical, but I don't think that should keep the conversation from going forth.

[luv4denzel]

I have to say that as an African-American woman, Imus' comments on the air were insulting, degrading, ignorant, and uncalled for. His apology (IMO) wasn't sincere. The fact remains that he called a group of women a bunch of whores. Insult to injury--"nappy-headed hos". He knew when he made that comment that he was as wrong as two left shoes. I say that so-called apology wasn't sincere because he wasn't apologizing for what he said. He did that to save face, and probably because the big wigs who pay him $8 million a year told him to "just say you're sorry, and they'll forget the whole thing in a couple of days." Would he have apologized if he had made such comments in the privacy of his home as opposed to on the air? Probably not.

I don't think that firing him is going to be productive at all. When this first popped off, CBS had no intentions of firing Imus. They decided to 'suspend' him for a couple of weeks. This so-called suspension wasn't scheduled to begin until next week. Right there, you can clearly see how serious they were taking this. The decision to fire Imus (and we all know this) had nothing to do with morals or the people of CBS being equally outraged by Imus' remarks. That was BUSINESS decision. When the big time sponsors decided to jump from the sinking ship of Imus, CBS saw rivers of money sailing away from them. There are many people out there now doing a happy dance that Imus is gone, but not me. I'm shaking my head. Where was all this outrage when Nelly was sliding a credit card through a sista's behind, and when another rapper claimed he had "hos in different area codes"? Imus made those remarks because that's how he felt. I'm sure he thought he'd dodge the bullet of outrage from our community with that half-assed apology, but he was sadly mistaken. If I'm being devil's advocate here, I have to say that I honestly don't believe that anything will change. There will still be rap songs with sistas being degraded and disrespected. There will still be half-naked women dancing and shaking in the videos with money being thrown at them as if they're exotic dancers in men's clubs. And while I applaud all the efforts made to make these artists accountable for the lyrics of their songs, there hasn't been much progress in that area. I believe in free speech, but I don't believe you have to say and promote degrading things about women to validate yourself as an artist. I could almost be happy about this Imus firing thing if I honestly thought that something productive would come of it. This is NOT a victory.

If I'm being honest here, I have to say that I am guilty of nodding my head or tapping my feet to the beat of a rap song in which we as African-American women are degraded, disrespected, and insulted. In light of this Imus situation, I took a long look at myself. I went through my extensive collection of music to take stock of how much money I've put into patronizing (and therefore supporting)music that has a tendency to degrade, insult, and disrespect me. I've helped these artists get homes, cars, jewelry, and the stamp of approval to continue to say the things they say, and now I'm insulted because a white man said it? I have to clean house--starting with my own. While I've stopped watching those videos years ago, I cannot continue to support artists who degrade, insult and disrespect us--AND I WON'T. I am raising two boys. If I'm nodding my head to that mess, what message do I send to my sons about women? I am a woman, in every sense of the word: intelligent, strong, spiritual, confident, and much more--and I don't need hip-hop artists to validate that. The music industry is BIG BUSINESS. If we want these artists whose music we listen to and purchase, our children look up to (and some aspire to be like) to stop these kinds of lyrics, we'll have to pull a Proctor and Gamble, a GM, or a Sprint-Nextel. Their lack of financial backing got Imus off the air. If we all stopped buying and listening to this stuff, it's possible we could do the same damage. But like my Mama used to say: "Wishing don't make it so."

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Honeykiss1974

Should we now shift our focus and outrage from IMUS to the rap industry?

*none of the following is directed toward Honeykiss*

That's been happening for over a decade.

Imus in neither a savior nor a catalyst for change as some misguided people have been claiming he is.

I was angered when I heard someone call Baisden's show and say "black people need to write a letter and THANK Imus." That's stupid and black people are falling into the same old trap of looking for saviors and false leaders to tell us what we need to be concerned with and when/how we need to act.

If folks are going to jump on the bandwagon and pretend that criticisms of the music industry are a brand new thing, I'm EXTREMELY disinterested.

But I hope those of you who are charged and excited about this "new" perspective keep it up. Change can take years to decades. Shortsighted people think nothing has been done or changed just because we still hear derogatory lyrics and see derogatory images.

Another annoying comment from Baisden's show: "Our ancestors would be rolling in their graves if they saw where we are now."

Uh...well...maybe not. That approach is as dumb as the "what would our Founders of our organizations say/think" comments. These people had certain opinions and left certain legacies. But we don't really know what the hell they'd say or do now. We need to be motivated on our own. Pay homage but don't get too stuck on holding seances to figure out if Harriet Tubman would be pissed at black people today.

*relax, relate, release.....*

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by laylo

Black people in the various communities I interact with regularly did not spend much time talking about Imus in our homes and with our friends (It was more just "Have you heard..."), but I've spent hours in heated conversations about misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop with Black people in all socio-economic situations.

Exactly. Any conversations among my colleagues and friends were only passing ones.

Originally Posted by laylo

I also don't advocate censorship, but people who do surely recognize that getting all offensive rap off the airwaves is not a realistic endeavor, especially considering the enormous amount of money made by it, mostly off of White youth.

Right. And offensive varies in definition. I can be entertained by "pop, lock and drop it" without needing to hear what's on the unedited version. There's still a degree of mysogyny in the edited version but there's always been mysogyny in every form of popular media.

Originally Posted by laylo

I do think that Black men are generally less angry about misogyny than they are about racism, but I think that is to be expected. Unfortunately Black male voices are often seen as the only (important) Black voices.

Yes because this is where their masculinity and position in the patriarchal structure give them power. They feel powerless in race affairs but not in gender affairs.

That's similar to how racial civil rights movements are headed by men and the concerns of black women are often ignored eventhough we are the backbone of many of these organizations. These groups' efforts will address racism but not address negative images of women and black women, in particular, because the black men are part of the reason for these persisting images and treatment.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Exactly. Any conversations among my colleagues and friends were only passing ones.



Right. And offensive varies in definition. I can be entertained by "pop, lock and drop it" without needing to hear what's on the unedited version. There's still a degree of mysogyny in the edited version but there's always been mysogyny in every form of popular media.



Yes because this is where their masculinity and position in the patriarchal structure give them power. They feel powerless in race affairs but not in gender affairs.

That's similar to how racial civil rights movements are headed by men and the concerns of black women are often ignored eventhough we are the backbone of many of these organizations. These groups' efforts will address racism but not address negative images of women and black women, in particular, because the black men are part of the reason for these persisting images and treatment.

Unfortunately for black women, some of the people who "represent" them have been poor examples. See: Cynthia McKinney. I don't know that anyone would consider her a civil rights activist, but I imagine she does in some sense.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by unspokenone25

BRAVO, Soror Little32!

Thank you Soror! *Takes a bow.*