The Devil's Advocate: Imus/Rap industry

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

We've already established that these ideas are not realistic. So the fact that people aren't taking actions that would obviously be fruitless does not indicate a double standard.

Yeah, the reason they're not realistic is because it wouldn't work. Why? Because 1) People wouldn't do it on a large scale and 2) people wouldn't follow through with a large scale boycott.

Thus, because not enough people within the community would be willing to act upon it, it likely wouldn't work. That doesn't eliminate it from the double standard category, that displays a double standard within the society as a whole. If you can get a significant base to act in a dedicated way regarding one problem, but they won't do the same in another, what is that?

I think the impossibility excuse is just that. Until the record companies and advertisers hear from black culture as a whole, not just a sliver of the community, of course they'll be able to ignore it. Don't you have to start somewhere (once again, this is all hypothetical, I really don't care)? Also, if anyone knows about how to succeed in uphill battles, its the black community. Sorry, I'm just not buying the "well, maybe we'd do it if it would work" argument.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, the reason they're not realistic is because it wouldn't work. Why? Because 1) People wouldn't do it on a large scale and 2) people wouldn't follow through with a large scale boycott.

Thus, because not enough people within the community would be willing to act upon it, it likely wouldn't work. That doesn't eliminate it from the double standard category, that displays a double standard within the society as a whole. If you can get a significant base to act in a dedicated way regarding one problem, but they won't do the same in another, what is that?

I think the impossibility excuse is just that. Until the record companies and advertisers hear from black culture as a whole, not just a sliver of the community, of course they'll be able to ignore it. Don't you have to start somewhere (once again, this is all hypothetical, I really don't care)? Also, if anyone knows about how to succeed in uphill battles, its the black community. Sorry, I'm just not buying the "well, maybe we'd do it if it would work" argument.

In order to argue for a double standard, you cannot implicate "the Black community" or "Black culture as a whole", because the people who protested Imus are a VERY small segment of the Black population as well (And were mostly only among the Black elite, whom you argued don't represent the whole). If every last one of them wanted to protest every single offensive hip hop artist on every single label and every single radio station playing them spread out all over the country, there would be nowhere to start. Furthermore even if they did, they would represent a "sliver" of the 20-30% of hip hop consumers who are Black.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

In order to argue for a double standard, you cannot implicate "the Black community" or "Black culture as a whole", because the people who protested Imus are a VERY small segment of the Black population as well (And were mostly only among the Black elite, whom you argued don't represent the whole). If every last one of them wanted to protest every single offensive hip hop artist on every single label and every single radio station playing them spread out all over the country, there would be nowhere to start. Furthermore even if they did, they would represent a "sliver" of the 20-30% of hip hop consumers who are Black.

Well, for one, when speaking of a double standard, there is no point in bringing up white people's participation in furthering rap music. The only reason for that would be to either bring up a double standard in the white community or to argue about whether rap music should be boycotted, etc, which isn't what we're discussing. If you want to bring up white double standards, I'd be happy to participate, but to my knowledge thats not the subject matter.

I agree, the people who stood outside MSNBC and protested were a small segment. However, I anticipate that given the personalities involved and the attention paid by the black community, they would have had a fairly large base to work with if they hadn't gotten their way so quickly. I don't think just a small segment of the black community was concerned. Walking around campus, going out to eat, getting gas, everyone was talking about it (by everyone, I mean a lot of black people, but whites too). Now, of course my experience is limited to my area and whatnot, but when combined with the extensive media coverage, what else am I to think? I know you want me to accept your view of this as valid, but everything I've read and witnessed firsthand contradicts what you'd prefer I accept.

Once again, I don't think the lack of feasibility is indicative of a lack of a double standard. I think there isn't enough support across the black community to foster such broad action against rap music. I'd compare this to something like the left's quest for gun control. Sure, they write articles, some may protest on occasion, but overall, the potential backlash outweighs most people's desire for the change. This isn't to say some aren't willing to do it, just as some are willing to create change in rap music at all costs. However, once again, I do see a disparity between the way the mainstream entity (in this case, the black community) reacts to different situations.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, for one, when speaking of a double standard, there is no point in bringing up white people's participation in furthering rap music. The only reason for that would be to either bring up a double standard in the white community or to argue about whether rap music should be boycotted, etc, which isn't what we're discussing. If you want to bring up white double standards, I'd be happy to participate, but to my knowledge thats not the subject matter.

I wasn't arguing White double standards, only that the Black community has a limited ability to manipulate an industry for which they are not the main consumers, and the protestors of Imus are a smaller number still.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree, the people who stood outside MSNBC and protested were a small segment. However, I anticipate that given the personalities involved and the attention paid by the black community, they would have had a fairly large base to work with if they hadn't gotten their way so quickly. I don't think just a small segment of the black community was concerned. Walking around campus, going out to eat, getting gas, everyone was talking about it (by everyone, I mean a lot of black people, but whites too). Now, of course my experience is limited to my area and whatnot, but when combined with the extensive media coverage, what else am I to think? I know you want me to accept your view of this as valid, but everything I've read and witnessed firsthand contradicts what you'd prefer I accept.

Again, there is a distinction between who was concerned and who acted. Of course you will accept whatever you wish, I'm just offering my experience as someone who interacts with different Black communities regularly and is actually involved in some of the efforts you are speaking about.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Once again, I don't think the lack of feasibility is indicative of a lack of a double standard. I think there isn't enough support across the black community to foster such broad action against rap music. I'd compare this to something like the left's quest for gun control. Sure, they write articles, some may protest on occasion, but overall, the potential backlash outweighs most people's desire for the change. This isn't to say some aren't willing to do it, just as some are willing to create change in rap music at all costs. However, once again, I do see a disparity between the way the mainstream entity (in this case, the black community) reacts to different situations.

I'm not saying the lack of feasibility indicates the non-existence of a double standard, I'm saying that without two feasible options, there is no evidence of the existence of a double standard. You can't make a valid judgement of people's unwillingness to do something without a valid 'something' for them to do.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally Posted by laylo

I wasn't arguing White double standards, only that the Black community has a limited ability to manipulate an industry for which they are not the main consumers, and the protestors of Imus are a smaller number still.

Great point- many, many Black people have commented on hip-hop's dark, violent, woman-hating elements, and many more have supported the protests with their time, voices and money, but it hasn't changed anything. We are not the main consumers of hip-hop culture. Our approval or the lack thereof will have no appreciable impact on the record labels bottom lines- as a matter of fact, the more loudly the voices complaining about the music (Dolores Tucker comes immediately to mind) the more popular it becomes with the public at large (similar to what happened in rock music when the explicit stickers went on the records- those artists were suddenly perceived as heroes by the public- just watch VH1).

[shinerbock]

Laylo,

I still disagree that the feasibility argument makes the two non-comparable. I think it may have some impact on the argument, but I don't see that it would render it moot.

[Honeykiss1974]

Rap Mogul Takes On Obama
Russell Simmons Said the Presidential Candidate Should Not Criticize 'Poets' for Slurs

By JAKE TAPPER and JERRY TULLY

April 16, 2007 — Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., found himself criticized Monday by one of rap and hip-hop's leading producers, Def Jam Records co-founder Russell Simmons, who challenged the presidential candidate to stop criticizing rappers' lyrics and start working to improve the urban-American world that inspires them.

"My response to Sen. Obama is that you have to talk about the poverty and ignorance that creates such a climate that the poets can talk like that," Simmons told ABC News. "And all the politicians owe them an education and an opportunity for a better life — and maybe they'll say something better."

Obama, the first presidential candidate to call for shock jock Don Imus to be fired for his racist comments about the Rutgers University women's basketball team, has said it's troublesome to condemn Imus' "nappy-headed hos" slur without addressing similar language used by rap and hip-hop musicians.

At a fundraising dinner for the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus in Columbia, S.C., Friday, Obama said, "We've got to admit to ourselves, that it was not the first time that we heard the word 'ho.' Turn on the radio station. There are a whole lot of songs that use the same language … We've been permitting it in our homes, and in our schools and on iPods."

Read the rest of the article here