The Devil's Advocate: Imus/Rap industry

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

While protesting involves anger, I don't think writing, discussing, and teaching involve less. Every time I've participated in these kinds of activities concerning hip hop, it was more intense for me than any issue I've actually protested. And regardless, it can only be called a double standard if those who protested Imus were doing nothing on the hip hop front. But the fact is there isn't anything more they can do because there is no step they can take that would prevent offensive rap from being produced and played.

No, it can still be a double standard. The steps people chose to take regarding Imus involved protests, threatening boycotts, etc... I don't see decisive action like that on rap music. Sermons and scholarly writings are no doubt important, but I don't see that they represent a similar intensity. I'm not doubting your personal intensity about the issue, but I still don't see the "outrage", if you will, when it comes to rap and other issues.

I think its understandable that people not go protest rap music, there are bigger concerns to address. I think the same applies to Imus, yet it nevertheless consumed some people's lives (and the country) for at least a few days. Again, I don't think the possibility that an effective protest against rap would be unrealistic is the reason for a difference in actions.

[shinerbock]

"Shake Your Money Maker" by the Black Crowes? I hope not, I like that song.

[delph998]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

"Shake Your Money Maker" by the Black Crowes? I hope not, I like that song.

No! "Shake Your Money Maker" by Ludacris. We're talking about hip hop/rap here.

[Conskeeted7]

I think the reality that many people are not willing to recognize publicly is that they are bothered when whites or other people use this 'racial slang' against black people. However, we often allow blacks to get away with it. What I mean by that is a rapper who uses that language might not get us to buy a CD, but we're not protesting. We're not demanding that record labels fire employees based on the overwhleming amount of racist/sexist language used.

[BlessedOne04]

Originally Posted by Conskeeted7

I think the reality that many people are not willing to recognize publicly is that they are bothered when whites or other people use this 'racial slang' against black people. However, we often allow blacks to get away with it. What I mean by that is a rapper who uses that language might not get us to buy a CD, but we're not protesting. We're not demanding that record labels fire employees based on the overwhleming amount of racist/sexist language used.

I fully agree!!!

At some point in everyones life they have made a joke or heard a joke demeaning black women/men and it was dismissed as funny. When are those people going to get repremanded by the black community? Further more Imus has made numerous off color comments, why does this comment get him fired? Yes I think his comments were wrong but I don't see firing being a suitable punishment. I also want to throw the question of whether people in the minority (blacks; hispanics; etc) can be considered racists for the comments they make toward each other and themselves. For example if we say hey my n... then did we just make a racist statement? While we are supporting "artists" that disrespect to the communities they come from.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No, it can still be a double standard. The steps people chose to take regarding Imus involved protests, threatening boycotts, etc... I don't see decisive action like that on rap music. Sermons and scholarly writings are no doubt important, but I don't see that they represent a similar intensity. I'm not doubting your personal intensity about the issue, but I still don't see the "outrage", if you will, when it comes to rap and other issues.

I think its understandable that people not go protest rap music, there are bigger concerns to address. I think the same applies to Imus, yet it nevertheless consumed some people's lives (and the country) for at least a few days. Again, I don't think the possibility that an effective protest against rap would be unrealistic is the reason for a difference in actions.

All I can say about the intensity issue is that I see outrage among Black women everywhere. I don't see dedicating the amount of time, research, energy, and emotion it takes to write books, create art, teach young people, put on magazine campaigns, hold forums, block artists from performing at venues, etc. as less intense than taking a matter of minutes writing a letter to a radio station. It hurts me to hear someone say that all of that work- in which the political is surely personal- is less intense than some short-term hooplah, but I digress.

You're saying you see no decisive action on rap, but what decisive action? What protest could they possibly hold that would produce a similar result to Imus getting fired?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

All I can say about the intensity issue is that I see outrage among Black women everywhere. I don't see dedicating the amount of time, research, energy, and emotion it takes to write books, create art, teach young people, put on magazine campaigns, hold forums, block artists from performing at venues, etc. as less intense than taking a matter of minutes writing a letter to a radio station. It hurts me to hear someone say that all of that work- in which the political is surely personal- is less intense than some short-term hooplah, but I digress.

You're saying you see no decisive action on rap, but what decisive action? What protest could they possibly hold that would produce a similar result to Imus getting fired?

And note again, I don't want anything to happen. We're merely discussing whether there is a double standard.

I just don't see the anger, I don't see the outrage. I don't see people protesting outside of record studios or demanding a large scale boycott of rap. I'm sure many are concerned with the state of rap music and are taking action. However, I just don't see the "results or else!" attitude that you see with other situations.

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

And note again, I don't want anything to happen. We're merely discussing whether there is a double standard.

I just don't see the anger, I don't see the outrage. I don't see people protesting outside of record studios or demanding a large scale boycott of rap. I'm sure many are concerned with the state of rap music and are taking action. However, I just don't see the "results or else!" attitude that you see with other situations.

The late Malcolm X used to tell white folks who wanted to join him to work in their own communities and organizations to change the mindset of their community. THAT is the best way that they could help further his human rights causes.

So to you, Shinerbock and your ilk, express your anger and outrage to YOUR community, ie the white folks who OWN the record companies that produce and promote this and those in the WHITE community who buy and support this music. You do your work in your community and we will continue to do the work in ours.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

The late Malcolm X used to tell white folks who wanted to join him to work in their own communities and organizations to change the mindset of their community. THAT is the best way that they could help further his human rights causes.

So to you, Shinerbock and your ilk, express your anger and outrage to YOUR community, ie the white folks who OWN the record companies that produce and promote this and those in the WHITE community who buy and support this music. You do your work in your community and we will continue to do the work in ours.

Its obvious you haven't read many of my posts in this thread. Thanks for trying, though.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I don't see people protesting outside of record studios or demanding a large scale boycott of rap. I'm sure many are concerned with the state of rap music and are taking action. However, I just don't see the "results or else!" attitude that you see with other situations.

We've already established that these ideas are not realistic. So the fact that people aren't taking actions that would obviously be fruitless does not indicate a double standard.

[jon1856]

I pulled the following points/counter-points (sorry CBS/60-Minutes)
out of the later part of the thread because I thought that they were rather interesting.

IMHO, from what I have seen and read in the past few weeks and from the little amount of Videos and audio I "reviewed" over the past few years, believe that there is a major double standard going on year.

From what I have seen and heard not only here but in general life, most people I know truly believe that certain actions, words, movements et al are wrong. Period.

To me, if does not matter who is doing it or saying it.

One could argue that it does not matter if it goes on only between two people or certain small compact group. But this stuff is now main-stream. It is on the major cable shows, it is on major song labels, it is in the public eyes and ears.

And yes, I am well aware that ever so often there are "actions" done to protest it.

But they seem to be once a year rather than in "their face" on a continual fashion.

And it just grows and grows and gowns larger and impacts more and more people. And becomes more and more accepted rather then rejected.
It becomes common place rather then a rarity. People grow up with it, see it and copy it in their actions and words.

I understand the well known marketing statement that "Sex sells".

But just how much sex, violent, improper actions, thoughts et al do we really need to be put into our faces and those of children?

It makes money for all involved.
So, I have to wonder if that is the reason some people may think that it can not be controlled? But is that not what played a part in getting Imus canned?

And one could include in the discussion the ultra-violent, sexist et al video games as well.

I now stand down off of my soap box and jump into my fire-proof suit.

Originally Posted by laylo

While protesting involves anger, I don't think writing, discussing, and teaching involve less. Every time I've participated in these kinds of activities concerning hip hop, it was more intense for me than any issue I've actually protested. And regardless, it can only be called a double standard if those who protested Imus were doing nothing on the hip hop front. But the fact is there isn't anything more they can do because there is no step they can take that would prevent offensive rap from being produced and played.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No, it can still be a double standard. The steps people chose to take regarding Imus involved protests, threatening boycotts, etc... I don't see decisive action like that on rap music. Sermons and scholarly writings are no doubt important, but I don't see that they represent a similar intensity. I'm not doubting your personal intensity about the issue, but I still don't see the "outrage", if you will, when it comes to rap and other issues.

I think its understandable that people not go protest rap music, there are bigger concerns to address. I think the same applies to Imus, yet it nevertheless consumed some people's lives (and the country) for at least a few days. Again, I don't think the possibility that an effective protest against rap would be unrealistic is the reason for a difference in actions.

Originally Posted by mccoyred

The difference is that in rap/hiphop/etc. the artists are talking about an anonymous 'YOU' whereas in this specific instance, the remarks were directed toward a specific group of named individuals. It is a legitimate moral distinction and supports the rationale taken. While I am not defending misogynist music (I don't listen to, buy or support in any way), there is a difference. I will elaborate more later but I needed to get this said as soon as possible in this thread....

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well that is true, in that he cruelly targeted people who weren't really in the public arena (which what I think the most serious offense was). However, if we're talking about differences, there are a lot of things in rap music that go far beyond the simplicity of Imus's statements. Sometimes they are much more foul and brutal, and on a much larger scale.

I think the difference is that while Imus's comments did immediate damage to a small number of people (you can claim different, but I view the victims as those girls), while rap has done slower but more widespread damage to our society. My take, anyway.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Not getting into the merits of this, but that is something I've changed my mind about over the past couple of years. I always disliked Sharpton more than Jackson until recently, but Sharpton occasionally makes good points and seems more willing to face his opposition. Granted, I still think he race baits, and he also seems more apt to enter into a conflict quicker than does Jackson. I do find it interesting to listen to him though, especially on programs like Glenn Beck.

Originally Posted by laylo

All I can say about the intensity issue is that I see outrage among Black women everywhere. I don't see dedicating the amount of time, research, energy, and emotion it takes to write books, create art, teach young people, put on magazine campaigns, hold forums, block artists from performing at venues, etc. as less intense than taking a matter of minutes writing a letter to a radio station. It hurts me to hear someone say that all of that work- in which the political is surely personal- is less intense than some short-term hooplah, but I digress.

You're saying you see no decisive action on rap, but what decisive action? What protest could they possibly hold that would produce a similar result to Imus getting fired?

Originally Posted by shinerbock

And note again, I don't want anything to happen. We're merely discussing whether there is a double standard.

I just don't see the anger, I don't see the outrage. I don't see people protesting outside of record studios or demanding a large scale boycott of rap. I'm sure many are concerned with the state of rap music and are taking action. However, I just don't see the "results or else!" attitude that you see with other situations.

Originally Posted by mccoyred

The late Malcolm X used to tell white folks who wanted to join him to work in their own communities and organizations to change the mindset of their community. THAT is the best way that they could help further his human rights causes.

So to you, Shinerbock and your ilk, express your anger and outrage to YOUR community, ie the white folks who OWN the record companies that produce and promote this and those in the WHITE community who buy and support this music. You do your work in your community and we will continue to do the work in ours.

Originally Posted by laylo

We've already established that these ideas are not realistic. So the fact that people aren't taking actions that would obviously be fruitless does not indicate a double standard.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

We've already established that these ideas are not realistic. So the fact that people aren't taking actions that would obviously be fruitless does not indicate a double standard.

Yeah, the reason they're not realistic is because it wouldn't work. Why? Because 1) People wouldn't do it on a large scale and 2) people wouldn't follow through with a large scale boycott.

Thus, because not enough people within the community would be willing to act upon it, it likely wouldn't work. That doesn't eliminate it from the double standard category, that displays a double standard within the society as a whole. If you can get a significant base to act in a dedicated way regarding one problem, but they won't do the same in another, what is that?

I think the impossibility excuse is just that. Until the record companies and advertisers hear from black culture as a whole, not just a sliver of the community, of course they'll be able to ignore it. Don't you have to start somewhere (once again, this is all hypothetical, I really don't care)? Also, if anyone knows about how to succeed in uphill battles, its the black community. Sorry, I'm just not buying the "well, maybe we'd do it if it would work" argument.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, the reason they're not realistic is because it wouldn't work. Why? Because 1) People wouldn't do it on a large scale and 2) people wouldn't follow through with a large scale boycott.

Thus, because not enough people within the community would be willing to act upon it, it likely wouldn't work. That doesn't eliminate it from the double standard category, that displays a double standard within the society as a whole. If you can get a significant base to act in a dedicated way regarding one problem, but they won't do the same in another, what is that?

I think the impossibility excuse is just that. Until the record companies and advertisers hear from black culture as a whole, not just a sliver of the community, of course they'll be able to ignore it. Don't you have to start somewhere (once again, this is all hypothetical, I really don't care)? Also, if anyone knows about how to succeed in uphill battles, its the black community. Sorry, I'm just not buying the "well, maybe we'd do it if it would work" argument.

In order to argue for a double standard, you cannot implicate "the Black community" or "Black culture as a whole", because the people who protested Imus are a VERY small segment of the Black population as well (And were mostly only among the Black elite, whom you argued don't represent the whole). If every last one of them wanted to protest every single offensive hip hop artist on every single label and every single radio station playing them spread out all over the country, there would be nowhere to start. Furthermore even if they did, they would represent a "sliver" of the 20-30% of hip hop consumers who are Black.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

In order to argue for a double standard, you cannot implicate "the Black community" or "Black culture as a whole", because the people who protested Imus are a VERY small segment of the Black population as well (And were mostly only among the Black elite, whom you argued don't represent the whole). If every last one of them wanted to protest every single offensive hip hop artist on every single label and every single radio station playing them spread out all over the country, there would be nowhere to start. Furthermore even if they did, they would represent a "sliver" of the 20-30% of hip hop consumers who are Black.

Well, for one, when speaking of a double standard, there is no point in bringing up white people's participation in furthering rap music. The only reason for that would be to either bring up a double standard in the white community or to argue about whether rap music should be boycotted, etc, which isn't what we're discussing. If you want to bring up white double standards, I'd be happy to participate, but to my knowledge thats not the subject matter.

I agree, the people who stood outside MSNBC and protested were a small segment. However, I anticipate that given the personalities involved and the attention paid by the black community, they would have had a fairly large base to work with if they hadn't gotten their way so quickly. I don't think just a small segment of the black community was concerned. Walking around campus, going out to eat, getting gas, everyone was talking about it (by everyone, I mean a lot of black people, but whites too). Now, of course my experience is limited to my area and whatnot, but when combined with the extensive media coverage, what else am I to think? I know you want me to accept your view of this as valid, but everything I've read and witnessed firsthand contradicts what you'd prefer I accept.

Once again, I don't think the lack of feasibility is indicative of a lack of a double standard. I think there isn't enough support across the black community to foster such broad action against rap music. I'd compare this to something like the left's quest for gun control. Sure, they write articles, some may protest on occasion, but overall, the potential backlash outweighs most people's desire for the change. This isn't to say some aren't willing to do it, just as some are willing to create change in rap music at all costs. However, once again, I do see a disparity between the way the mainstream entity (in this case, the black community) reacts to different situations.