The Devil's Advocate: Imus/Rap industry

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

I wouldn't judge thge reality of how people feel by news coverage, which is meant to be sensational and attention-grabbing. I doubt that any Black scholars will be writing books about racism and outrageous radio personalities or psycho comedians, but many books have addressed misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop. Black people in the various communities I interact with regularly did not spend much time talking about Imus in our homes and with our friends (It was more just "Have you heard..."), but I've spent hours in heated conversations about misogyny and hypermasculinity in hip hop with Black people in all socio-economic situations.



I also don't advocate censorship, but people who do surely recognize that getting all offensive rap off the airwaves is not a realistic endeavor, especially considering the enormous amount of money made by it, mostly off of White youth.

I do think that Black men are generally less angry about misogyny than they are about racism, but I think that is to be expected. Unfortunately Black male voices are often seen as the only (important) Black voices.

I agree with this. I don't judge on entirely on media coverage. But lets be honest. I can say "you know, most people I know could give a damn about Anna Nicole", but people still do care, the discussion is out there. Thats why I say its tough for yall (and me, in other matters) to say that our surroundings and are feelings are reflective of society at large.

Also, regarding rap censorship, I agree, I don't want to change it. Now, if its BET Uncut at 3pm on weekdays, sure, that should probably be altered. Also, the content of rap as a whole generally conflicts with what I would believe in, but still, I don't feel that warrants it being taken out of the public arena. However, I don't feel that just because of its popularity there shouldn't be a level of outrage. I do agree, its not that feasible, but I don't think that removes it from the valid comparison category. I don't think the reason for a lack of protest regarding rap is the fact that its not feasible to get rid of it. I think that may impact some people's decisions, but I think there are more pervasive factors. I simply think that people aren't as offended by rap, and therefore less action is taken. The question then becomes, why aren't they as offended? I think there are many people who would give lipservice, saying sure, it offends me, but thats where the protest ends. I think this contrasts greatly with the Duke or Imus situation, wherein lies the double standard, at least from my perspective.

Sorry if thats not overly intelligible, stream of consciousness, if you will.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree with this. I don't judge on entirely on media coverage. But lets be honest. I can say "you know, most people I know could give a damn about Anna Nicole", but people still do care, the discussion is out there. Thats why I say its tough for yall (and me, in other matters) to say that our surroundings and are feelings are reflective of society at large.

The discussion is out there, but it is minimal. And the discussion is also out there about hip hop, but there isn't a hot story right now that has everyone talking at the same time. Discussion about Imus will fade quickly as the story gets old, but discussion of offensive hip hop will remain.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I do agree, its not that feasible, but I don't think that removes it from the valid comparison category. I don't think the reason for a lack of protest regarding rap is the fact that its not feasible to get rid of it. I think that may impact some people's decisions, but I think there are more pervasive factors. I simply think that people aren't as offended by rap, and therefore less action is taken. The question then becomes, why aren't they as offended? I think there are many people who would give lipservice, saying sure, it offends me, but thats where the protest ends. I think this contrasts greatly with the Duke or Imus situation, wherein lies the double standard, at least from my perspective.

I would argue that most people only paid lipservice to the Imus situation as well. And the number of people who went further is far smaller than the number who have gone further concerning hip hop over the years. But in the case of hip hop there isn't an easy action we can take against it, such as calling an organization and demanding that an employee be fired. For the most part all we can do to combat it is to discuss, write, and teach, and a whole lot of people are doing that.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally Posted by laylo

But in the case of hip hop there isn't an easy action we can take against it, such as calling an organization and demanding that an employee be fired. For the most part all we can do to combat it is to discuss, write, and teach, and a whole lot of people are doing that.

Where we spend our $$$$$ may do more than we think though. I noticed with Imus, that once his sponsors started pullng from his show, he went from a 2 week suspension, to being booted from MSNBC, to being fired from CBS. FAST.

Money talks. Perhaps if we threatened to stop patronizing those companies that use those rappers that make their money from degrading women(ie Snoop Dogg/ 50 Cent/etc.) as their spokensperson(s) it will cause the same type of chain reaction. Some companies also own music labels that specialize in promoting artist that make this type of music (ex. Sony). Boycotting not only the label but the company itself would definitely get their attention. I'm sure if Sony saw a dip in their playstation, computer, etc. sales (especially during the holiday season), they would take notice.

In short, let's start hitting people in the pocketbook - not only the rappers but those that sponsor and promote it as well.

Disclaimer - when I say "rappers" I only mean those that degrade/humilate women in their lyrics.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Honeykiss1974

Where we spend our $$$$$ may do more than we think though. I noticed with Imus, that once his sponsors started pullng from his show, he went from a 2 week suspension, to being booted from MSNBC, to being fired from CBS. FAST.

Money talks. Perhaps if we threatened to stop patronizing those companies that use those rappers that make their money from degrading women(ie Snoop Dogg/ 50 Cent/etc.) as their spokensperson(s) it will cause the same type of chain reaction. Some companies also own music labels that specialize in promoting artist that make this type of music (ex. Sony). Boycotting not only the label but the company itself would definitely get their attention. I'm sure if Sony saw a dip in their playstation, computer, etc. sales (especially during the holiday season), they would take notice.

In short, let's start hitting people in the pocketbook - not only the rappers but those that sponsor and promote it as well.

Disclaimer - when I say "rappers" I only mean those that degrade/humilate women in their lyrics.

A thing about the money situation, I think its somewhat of a cop out for the groups that fired Imus. Imus made MSNBC and CBS money, and the pulling out of sponsors probably wouldn't have overshadowed that. I think money is a perfectly acceptable reason to fire someone, but in this case I think the sponsor pull out simply gave the conglomerates another excuse to give in to public pressure. Whats weird is that from what I've heard on MSNBC, they're taking the slant that it didn't have that much to do with the sponsors. If I were doing their PR, I'd probably blame the sponsor pull out fully. Of course, some Americans probably think firing someone for financial reasons is a poor excuse, while I think its probably the best excuse.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

The discussion is out there, but it is minimal. And the discussion is also out there about hip hop, but there isn't a hot story right now that has everyone talking at the same time. Discussion about Imus will fade quickly as the story gets old, but discussion of offensive hip hop will remain.



I would argue that most people only paid lipservice to the Imus situation as well. And the number of people who went further is far smaller than the number who have gone further concerning hip hop over the years. But in the case of hip hop there isn't an easy action we can take against it, such as calling an organization and demanding that an employee be fired. For the most part all we can do to combat it is to discuss, write, and teach, and a whole lot of people are doing that.

As much as I'd like to think this is true, I really think we're overestimating Americans. I agree that the majority of people in the Imus situation didn't take their protest to the next level, but then, they didn't have time to. I wonder what would have happened in a more prolonged situation involving extended protests, boycotts, etc. I don't think it would have been a situation where a majority of people are doing it, but I still think it would be of a higher intensity than other things we're discussing.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

As much as I'd like to think this is true, I really think we're overestimating Americans. I agree that the majority of people in the Imus situation didn't take their protest to the next level, but then, they didn't have time to. I wonder what would have happened in a more prolonged situation involving extended protests, boycotts, etc. I don't think it would have been a situation where a majority of people are doing it, but I still think it would be of a higher intensity than other things we're discussing.

While protesting involves anger, I don't think writing, discussing, and teaching involve less. Every time I've participated in these kinds of activities concerning hip hop, it was more intense for me than any issue I've actually protested. And regardless, it can only be called a double standard if those who protested Imus were doing nothing on the hip hop front. But the fact is there isn't anything more they can do because there is no step they can take that would prevent offensive rap from being produced and played.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

While protesting involves anger, I don't think writing, discussing, and teaching involve less. Every time I've participated in these kinds of activities concerning hip hop, it was more intense for me than any issue I've actually protested. And regardless, it can only be called a double standard if those who protested Imus were doing nothing on the hip hop front. But the fact is there isn't anything more they can do because there is no step they can take that would prevent offensive rap from being produced and played.

No, it can still be a double standard. The steps people chose to take regarding Imus involved protests, threatening boycotts, etc... I don't see decisive action like that on rap music. Sermons and scholarly writings are no doubt important, but I don't see that they represent a similar intensity. I'm not doubting your personal intensity about the issue, but I still don't see the "outrage", if you will, when it comes to rap and other issues.

I think its understandable that people not go protest rap music, there are bigger concerns to address. I think the same applies to Imus, yet it nevertheless consumed some people's lives (and the country) for at least a few days. Again, I don't think the possibility that an effective protest against rap would be unrealistic is the reason for a difference in actions.

[shinerbock]

"Shake Your Money Maker" by the Black Crowes? I hope not, I like that song.

[delph998]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

"Shake Your Money Maker" by the Black Crowes? I hope not, I like that song.

No! "Shake Your Money Maker" by Ludacris. We're talking about hip hop/rap here.

[laylo]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No, it can still be a double standard. The steps people chose to take regarding Imus involved protests, threatening boycotts, etc... I don't see decisive action like that on rap music. Sermons and scholarly writings are no doubt important, but I don't see that they represent a similar intensity. I'm not doubting your personal intensity about the issue, but I still don't see the "outrage", if you will, when it comes to rap and other issues.

I think its understandable that people not go protest rap music, there are bigger concerns to address. I think the same applies to Imus, yet it nevertheless consumed some people's lives (and the country) for at least a few days. Again, I don't think the possibility that an effective protest against rap would be unrealistic is the reason for a difference in actions.

All I can say about the intensity issue is that I see outrage among Black women everywhere. I don't see dedicating the amount of time, research, energy, and emotion it takes to write books, create art, teach young people, put on magazine campaigns, hold forums, block artists from performing at venues, etc. as less intense than taking a matter of minutes writing a letter to a radio station. It hurts me to hear someone say that all of that work- in which the political is surely personal- is less intense than some short-term hooplah, but I digress.

You're saying you see no decisive action on rap, but what decisive action? What protest could they possibly hold that would produce a similar result to Imus getting fired?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by laylo

All I can say about the intensity issue is that I see outrage among Black women everywhere. I don't see dedicating the amount of time, research, energy, and emotion it takes to write books, create art, teach young people, put on magazine campaigns, hold forums, block artists from performing at venues, etc. as less intense than taking a matter of minutes writing a letter to a radio station. It hurts me to hear someone say that all of that work- in which the political is surely personal- is less intense than some short-term hooplah, but I digress.

You're saying you see no decisive action on rap, but what decisive action? What protest could they possibly hold that would produce a similar result to Imus getting fired?

And note again, I don't want anything to happen. We're merely discussing whether there is a double standard.

I just don't see the anger, I don't see the outrage. I don't see people protesting outside of record studios or demanding a large scale boycott of rap. I'm sure many are concerned with the state of rap music and are taking action. However, I just don't see the "results or else!" attitude that you see with other situations.