What teachers really want to tell parents.

[MysticCat]

Slow to the party.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

And I doubt that if the doctor gave you an opinion you would turn to the nurse and say "Is that true?". There's a big difference between challenging a teacher's veracity and asking for clarification. Once you have essentially called the teacher a liar it is going to be very difficult to have an "actual discussion".

SWTXBelle, I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you've said in this thread (and have strived to be the parent you describe as a partner), and I agree mostly with the article, but I can't go with this. Your example is seriously apples and oranges. The teacher is relating a fact, and the hypothetical parent is essentially asking the child to confirm (or deny or explain) the fact. Facts are facts are facts.

The doctor you posit, on the other hand, is offering an opinion. It's his opinion whether the nurse agrees with it or not and regardless of whether it is accurate. Opinions are not facts.

Originally Posted by AGDee

Honestly, I would take the "Is that true?" to mean "You should know better, I can't believe you did that you little monster!" sort of like "What were you thinking???" or "You DIDN'T!"
But I guess it's all about the tone of voice.

Well, my inclination would be to treat it like "how do you plead: Guilty or Not Guilty?," but yeah, this.

And for the record, this is exactly what I have done on occasion. And the few times I've gotten "No, I didn't," I've followed it with something along the lines of "Well, I know Teacher wouldn't tell me something that's not true," coupled with a reminder to the child on the importance of telling the truth and a do-over. The point is not to insinuate that the teacher is a liar. The point is to require the child to own responsibility by saying "Yes, I did that."

[katydidKD]

Yeah, teachers really are overpaid!!

CRIBS: TEACHERS (start at 2:00)

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Nonsnarky questions, did someone in this thread try to say that you are making too much money as a teacher?

No, I think its just that some people (so far no one on GC) think that teachers do make too much money. They use the excuse "oh they are off for 3 months in the summer" and "they only work until 3pm", stuff like that. Which isn't really true anymore.

More and more schools are going year round. When I worked year round I started back late July/Early August. I got 1-2 (depending on the district) weeks off in October. 2-3 (again district) weeks off for Christmas and then 1-2 weeks off for spring break. We then had 6 weeks off for summer vacation (if that as most teachers tried to work over the summer for extra money).

With the DOD, I'm on a typical school calendar and I believe my summer vacation was like 10-11 weeks. My last day was June 15 and I reported back August 22. I then get 2 weeks for Christmas.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI

You don't know that both husband and wife are teachers on Snob Hill. I live in a teeny tiny town where name goes further as well, but could easily commute ~1 hour in any direction to Corporate America.

Well, that's nice for you, but not feasible there.

And yeah, I'm not saying anyone makes too much money. I'm saying that compared to other people who live in the town, teachers have one of the best paying jobs. Obviously that is not the case everywhere. It just takes a special kind of cojones for ANYONE in ANY job to bitch about having to pay for your copays when there are people in your immediate orbit who don't even have health insurance.

Oh, and this.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Since social class is about more than salary, it has always been the case that K-12 teachers in many cities were and still are considered of the middle to upper socioeconomic strata.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by BetteDavisEyes

Something I've encountered this school year is parents furious because their little precious snowflake lost recess and/or classroom privileges due to not doing any work in the classroom. My kids know that failure to complete assignements in a timely manner results in them losing their Fun Friday activities. Some parents were demanding that I let their kids have their Fun Friday and they will do the work at home. Ummm...no. I told them in no uncertain terms that since it was CLASSWORK, it had to be completed in the classroom and I was NOT going to change my expectations for anyone.

Needless to say, I have some parents who dislike me intensely but frankly, I don't give a shit.

I sincerely hope you are working for someone who appreciates what you are doing. I think your taking the harder but better path with your students is admirable, and I hope your principal does too.

ETA: teaching well is a pretty hard job, and frequently it seems to me that we'd be better off making sure that compensation and work conditions for good teachers are at least comparable to those in the fields that these good teachers could pursue if they left teaching.

But the tricky part is that you may not really have to teach well to stay employed as a teacher. I think most teacher can think of several colleagues who consistently do a weak job and yet don't really face any professional consequences. There is also another set of teachers who work really hard, but there's nothing that we presently measure that will quantify that they've make any difference at all.

So then you wonder, if some teachers can hold this job doing that little, that poorly, or with that little apparent effect, why should the taxpayers pony up more in compensation across the board as if everyone in the field is teaching like a rock star? It's not that retaining the top set of rock stars has no value; it's just that it's hard to figure out exactly what that value is.

And on some level the bottom line is that the present pay system is what the market supports. I can't imagine anything other than a gigantic teacher shortage having much effect to drive salaries or working conditions up, and with the rest of the economy in such a bad way, I don't see it happening.

Which is not to say that I wouldn't enjoy a big, fat raise.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

More and more schools are going year round. When I worked year round I started back late July/Early August. I got 1-2 (depending on the district) weeks off in October. 2-3 (again district) weeks off for Christmas and then 1-2 weeks off for spring break. We then had 6 weeks off for summer vacation (if that as most teachers tried to work over the summer for extra money).

(Note: ASUADPi.. the entire post to follow is not only directed at you.. I didn't want you to get that impression!)

So at the least you had 10 weeks off, and at the most you had 14 weeks off. At my first job, I had NO weeks off. And I worked at a law firm as a paralegal, where you met deadlines.. period. If you had to stay until 9pm to meet a deadline, you did.

At my current job, I get 4 weeks off, and I work 10-12 hour days, every day. I travel, and it can be exhausting. A big part of what I do is train people in an electronic filing system, and while most days I like my job, it can also be the most frustrating thing ever. I have people who refuse to participate, people who are on their phones the entire time, people who bitch, try to get away with not working in the system, then ask every question in the book a month later because they don't know what they're doing.. and I have no parent to go to in order to straighten them out. I make a decent amount of money, but not for where I live. If I was still in PA, I'd be living large. But I started here at a decent amount, I received a 12% raise last year, and an 11% raise this year, and I STILL live at home. Jersey is EXPENSIVE.

I'm not trying to start anything.. I'm just pointing out that yes, teachers do get a lot of time off.. and I don't feel bad for them if they "only" get 10 weeks off. And I don't feel bad because they work long hours... welcome to America. We work more than any other country, and that goes for many professions. To anyone who suggests that the rest of us don't understand.. some of us do. We all deal with on-the-job stressors.. we just deal with different ones (although I think that a lot of mine are strangely similar to teachers').

I do sympathize with teachers, however, in that they have to deal with parents who will always take their child's side. It happens, and I believe this article is only directed at those particular parents. Mine went to conferences, and they listened. Parents don't have to believe the teacher, but as a fellow human being, they should respect them. Even if the parent wants to listen to nothing of what the teacher has to say, then they don't have to.. but they shouldn't come at them in an aggressive manner after they turn to their child to ask them what happened, and they respond, "Nothing."

There are some teachers who are amazing, and some that aren't. Some teachers get paid a lot, some don't. Again, it's the same with many professions. While I've never worked in the educational system, I know many people who have - some of my friends are teachers, my mom served as the president of the Board of Education when we lived in NH, my best friend's entire family is in the profession.. I've heard all of the stories, the good and the bad. And I could go on and on about the sucky teachers getting paid more than the good ones.. and teachers getting tenure too easily.. and kids being more unruly/disrespecful than ever before, and teachers receiving pensions.. and on and on and on.

The long and short of it is that parents should respect teachers, teachers should respect parents, and everyone should understand the need for a good relationship between both of those parties and the child they share responsibility for.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But the tricky part is that you may not really have to teach well to stay employed as a teacher. I think most teacher can think of several colleagues who consistently do a weak job and yet don't really face any professional consequences. There is also another set of teachers who work really hard, but there's nothing that we presently measure that will quantify that they've make any difference at all.

So then you wonder, if some teachers can hold this job doing that little, that poorly, or with that little apparent effect, why should the taxpayers pony up more in compensation across the board as if everyone in the field is teaching like a rock star? It's not that retaining the top set of rock stars has no value; it's just that it's hard to figure out exactly what that value is.

I know I'm double-posting, but I just read your post, and I completely agree. This is what makes things difficult. As I mentioned, tenure can be a huge controversy. My mom has mentioned on multiple occasions that there are definitely teachers out there who will work their asses off for 3 years - including coaching a team, staying to help students after school, volunteering at after-school events - and then once they receive tenure, they put in the minimum, and that's it.

It's unfortunate, because it's people like that who give other teachers a bad name, and who really end up cheating the students. I'm not saying everyone has to put in a ton of time outside of the 8 hours they're in the classroom, but when you only work hard to get something for yourself in this profession, I think it says something about how much you really care for the students you're teaching.

It truly takes a special person to be a good teacher. I applaud the ones who make a positive impact every day, and especially the ones who made a big impact on my life. Fortunately for me, I can say that's most, if not all of the ones I've had the privilege of learning from.

...And I'm sorry if I was ever a pain in the ass

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

These are interesting additions to the discussion and there are a lot of people who feel this way. The teachers (not really on GC but in real life) who choose to defend teaching as a profession when discussing topics that don't require a discussion of teaching as a profession should be prepared to receive this type of response from some people.

I don't want to sound dumb, but I'm confused as to what you mean. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "teachers who choose to defend teaching as a profession when discussing topics that don't require discussion of teaching as a profession". I don't get it. I'm sorry.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

I don't want to sound dumb, but I'm confused as to what you mean. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say "teachers who choose to defend teaching as a profession when discussing topics that don't require discussion of teaching as a profession". I don't get it. I'm sorry.

I think it means (and DrPhil can correct me if I'm wrong) that you're discussing things that aren't specific to the teaching profession. I can relate to getting paid nearly nothing for working long hours and no vacation time. Many people can relate to that. It's not something that only happens in the teaching profession. You won't find sympathy because of these things.

On the other hand, angry/aggressive/impossible parents is something that only teachers can know and understand. We can feel sympathy for that.

[bevinpiphi]

I teach in a 6th-8th grade functional special education room. My students fall into a pre-kindergarten to 3rd grade ability range. The parents of the 9 students in my classroom span the continuum for parent involvement and cooperation. I send home daily point sheets for all students in my classroom (2 of which have behavior plans that necessitate this), which also contain positive notes and daily classroom notes. I have parents who don't return calls, don't return forms, don't come to IEP meetings regarding their child (and never have, when looking at the file), to parents who are in constant communication and constant agreement and if not agreement, respect, to parents who think that their little snowflake never does anything wrong ("He stabbed you in the arm with scissors while you were helping a child who was having an allergic reaction because you must have done something") and that I'm a fool who is wrong about their child having little hope of age-appropriate functioning (He's in 8th grade. He reads at a 2nd grade level. He gained a half a grade level over a year. That's as good as it gets). It is immensely frustrating to have a parent of a child with a behavior disorder call and inform you that you are lying about their child being physical, and they know that because their little angel told them so. I believe that is the stuff the author of the article is talking about with the "Is that true?" statement.
I also make calls home, more often for positive things than for negative. I still hear the trepidation in parents' voices when I call them, even though this is now year 2 that I've been their child's teacher. Even if I am calling for something extremely negative (like the one child who punches. A LOT), I try to also include something positive (Like...your child punched but yay this time he did apologize and go to the office without argument). For many parents of students with special needs, the education world can be a big pile of "Your kid can't." Your kid can't read, your kid can't listen, your kid can't behave. I feel like if more teacher-parent communication was positive/praising instead of negative/correcting, this situation would be a bit better. I hear teachers at my school complain all the time about how hard it is to contact parents. Guess what? An e-mail takes you 2 minutes. Most phone calls take less than 5. A note home (I have a printout for good news from school) takes 3 minutes. Choose a few kids a week and make it a point to relay something positive from school to home. I have been making huge strides with both the student who is violent and his parents, and I think it's because I've kept at it, giving positive feedback. I haven't given up on this child, and I think that's what the parents were expecting me to do. They may have had a negative approach because they've only had negative experiences with the various schools their child has been at.
This issue is so much bigger than just parents and teachers. It is a cultural thing. Parenting styles and expectations have changed, and schools have largely remained the same. There needs to be major reform in education, but it won't happen anytime soon.

[KSig RC]

Remember that time, on Page 1, where I said the word "OVERPAID" would send this thread into a shitshow?

Holy crap I'm smart. Unfortunately, I'd be a terrible teacher - I hit stupid people about the head and neck, and also have trouble explaining concepts because my mastery outstrips my ability to relate. Luckily I'm only paid for the former - and you don't know what it's like, because you've never lived it. THE PATENT DOCKET DON'T STOP, SON

[KSUViolet06]

^^^I've been hearing about the average age of K12 teachers going down because of older teachers choosing to retire early in the face of controversial legislature being passed in their states (SB 5 and issue 2 in Ohio, but there have been similar laws that passed in other states) that make it not financially worthwhile for them to continue teaching. Ex: if a state law just slashed your benefits and your district plans to hit you with a pay freeze, you sometimes find it best to just retire.

Also, I've heard that teachers who maybe worked in other fields first and went to GRAD school for education (ex: a friend of mine went from Speech Pathology to Education), tend to handle the first few years in the classroom better and stick around longer than people coming straight out of undergrad. I've only heard that from teachers I know, though so it's probably not the same everywhere.

[glittergal1985]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

^^^

Also, I've heard that teachers who maybe worked in other fields first and went to GRAD school for education (ex: a friend of mine went from Speech Pathology to Education), tend to handle the first few years in the classroom better and stick around longer than people coming straight out of undergrad. I've only heard that from teachers I know, though so it's probably not the same everywhere.

I'm glad to hear that. I studied business in undergrad but will be finished with my master's in education in May. The New Jersey job market is anything but promising right now, but hopefully I will be moving to the Southwest soon.