Sororities and Feminism

[SWTXBelle]

Were Nora Ephron the only self-proclaimed feminist to have some litmus test for being a feminist, I wouldn't have mentioned it. If I really wished to call myself a feminist I would, but I have no interest in labeling myself with that term. I do, however, get tired of the "Why aren't younger women calling themselves feminists?" articles and essays - it's because of the feminist gate-keepers who wish to advance some political agenda rather than simply promote equality.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Were Nora Ephron the only self-proclaimed feminist to have some litmus test for being a feminist, I wouldn't have mentioned it. If I really wished to call myself a feminist I would, but I have no interest in labeling myself with that term. I do, however, get tired of the "Why aren't younger women calling themselves feminists?" articles and essays - it's because of the feminist gate-keepers who wish to advance some political agenda rather than simply promote equality.

Okay, setting abortion aside, what do you think that feminists politicize that is unrelated to equality?

[SWTXBelle]

The problem with that question is that there are feminists who regard ALL issues as relating to equality. This leads to the "Republicans can't be feminists" argument, or "stay at home moms can't be feminists", or "those who refuse to support gun control can't be feminists", or just about any issue that can be seen through that particular lens. Admittedly, one of the problems is defining "equality".

The difference between a political party (which has a platform and elected leadership) or the Catholic Church (which has its catechism and hierarchy) is that feminism is not an institution. It should be more inclusive given the general nature of its denotative meaning. To argue that anti-abortionists can't be feminist is to commit the logical fallacy of begging the question - it is predicated on the idea that abortion is only an issue regarding the mother and that the father and the unborn baby (or fetus) have no rights. That is an entirely different argument (which I am not interested in getting into), but my point is that one can believe in the equality of women without supporting abortion. If there were to be a Feminist Political Party then I would accept the right of the members to dictate what a Feminist is required to believe. To the best of my knowledge, the late Nora Ephron was never elected spokeswoman for feminists.

Feminists hurt themselves and thus the quest for equality by making issues shibboleths for acceptance.

[Titchou]

I agree, Belle. It's difficult when you have to check all the boxes to be considered a Catholic, a Republican, a whatever. Very few people check or uncheck ALL the boxes in a description. But most people assume that they do! Perception is everything unfortunately. We are all conundrums is some way, shape or form in that we don't fit into all the boxes of any particular group. Most of us have a foot in each world. Labels just don't explain who we are as individuals.

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

The problem with that question is that there are feminists who regard ALL issues as relating to equality. This leads to the "Republicans can't be feminists" argument, or "stay at home moms can't be feminists", or "those who refuse to support gun control can't be feminists", or just about any issue that can be seen through that particular lens. Admittedly, one of the problems is defining "equality".

Feminists hurt themselves and thus the quest for equality by making issues shibboleths for acceptance.

Yes and when one statement or one issue or one remarkable person is the sole deciding factor you inevitably give rise to extremism.

In this case, it is arguably defying labels rather than the ideals. This then comes back to one argument against Greek life, namely the idea that self-identifying with a label limits freedom or independence?

ETA: Assumably we are asserting our rights to assemble with others of our own ideals and interests?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I agree, Belle. It's difficult when you have to check all the boxes to be considered a Catholic, a Republican, a whatever. Very few people check or uncheck ALL the boxes in a description. But most people assume that they do! Perception is everything unfortunately. We are all conundrums is some way, shape or form in that we don't fit into all the boxes of any particular group. Most of us have a foot in each world. Labels just don't explain who we are as individuals.

Right, and you can, for example, stay home with the kids and still be a feminist. Because you know what? We live in a society where the pressure on women to do so is unequal to the pressure on men to do so. You can recognize that pressure, be ideologically against that pressure, work to make changes that reduce/eliminate that pressure, and STILL make the choice to stay home with your kids, and that's okay.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I agree, Belle. It's difficult when you have to check all the boxes to be considered a Catholic, a Republican, a whatever. Very few people check or uncheck ALL the boxes in a description. But most people assume that they do! Perception is everything unfortunately. We are all conundrums is some way, shape or form in that we don't fit into all the boxes of any particular group. Most of us have a foot in each world. Labels just don't explain who we are as individuals.

I agree completely.

I consider myself a Republican, however I am pro-choice and pro-gay rights. To some people, that means I cannot be a republican - but I still identify with their stance on most issues. However, I hesitate labeling myself as such because some people associate Republicans (this is just an example) as being something very negative. (Again, this is just an example. Some people identify Democrats, Catholics, whatever as being something negative as well.)

I am pro equal rights for women, but I hesitate to use the term "feminist" because when I think of the term feminist, I sometimes think of women who say "let's take over the world and make men stop working so we can take over all their jobs and run everything."

Labels kind of suck.

[DubaiSis]

While I consider myself a feminist in all the most obvious ways, I do think you have to consider it, like most political things, on a scale. And the feminist from 1970 was fighting for very different things than the feminist of today. I was raised Catholic and for awhile could live with the contradictions in my beliefs, but at some point I had to give up on them because they can't be wrong on THAT many levels and still have me as a member at any level. I think the same thing would be true of a woman calling herself a feminist. You may not believe in all of the 10 things you think make up feminism to call yourself one, but if you believe in most of them and the 1 or 2 things you dissent on aren't repugnant to you, you can call yourself a feminist. But I see feminism as a desire for equality between men and woman on a macro level, equal pay for equal work being the mac daddy of that.

I don't see how a gay person or a woman could be a Republican, but if you can compartmentalize the parts you disagree with and be happy with the party as a whole, then great. But you are definitely part of a small and shrinking minority and you might want to ponder the reasons for that. I mean, you might be able to compartmentalize "legitimate rape" but when those comments start accumulating onto a 2nd or 3rd hand, isn't it time to reconsider your loyalties? The same would be true on whether or not you think you are or should be a feminist.

And to quote EMILY'S List - When Women Run, Women Win! Be a feminist or not, but run for office! You can change the world, and I think women are vastly better legislators, even when I don't agree with them.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You're being charitable when you say "a little farther."

I suspect my brother and SIL are in this group so I have to be nice.

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I admit that I swallowed really, really hard when Sarah Palin said she was a feminist. It's not my job to say how she is allowed to label herself, but it's not the label I would use.

I would absolutely say Sarah Palin is a feminist. She may not hold to all tenets of feminism, but look where she has gotten in life. She was the first republican vice presidential candidate. Not too shabby, even if I can't stand her.

[Tulip86]

To me feminism is about options and choices.
To me, a housewife can be a feminist, because if staying at home is her choice, when she also has the option to work, it should be her choice.

Feminism to me is about striving for equality in legal rights, the workplace, freedom of choice and the right to decide over my own body.
The right to equal pay, to not be fired over pregnancy, or the assumption that all women just want to be mothers, that women aren't weaker and can do anything they put their mind to, if that's their choice.


I view subjects such as abortion in quite a simple way (maybe it's my Dutch live-and-let-live heritage) : If you're against abortions; don't have one, but don't take away someone else's right to decide over their own body.

I know this view is quite simplistic, especially where religion comes in, and doesn't mesh well with the view of some that abortion is murder, but it's was I was brought up with, simply put: if it doesn't harm or endanger others, then it's not up to me to interfere.

[squirrely girl]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

... it's because of the feminist gate-keepers who wish to advance some political agenda rather than simply promote equality.

Why do you see the political as somehow separate from the personal?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I would absolutely say Sarah Palin is a feminist. She may not hold to all tenets of feminism, but look where she has gotten in life. She was the first republican vice presidential candidate. Not too shabby, even if I can't stand her.

This is tricky, because Palin is a very much a "do as I say, not as I do" kinda politician. One look at her children and the sanctity of their marriages makes that clear.

[squirrely girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I would absolutely say Sarah Palin is a feminist.

OMG NO NO NO NO NO! NOT EVER!

One doesn't have to make specific choices for one's own life to be a feminist... but one sure as hell doesn't get to enact policies that limit women and still call themselves a feminist.

This is the woman that decided rape victims should pay for their own rape kits... ya know, to save money.

Sarah Palin is no more a feminist that those female twits that make a (really good) living telling women to get back in the kitchen.

As to the topic of abortion, I don't think it's mandatory that a person personally be okay with abortion, rather they shouldn't seek to deny other women that choice. Personally, I have pretty specific limits on my comfort with choosing abortion for myself (rape, threat to my life/health, fetal conditions incompatible with life) but I would never dream of forcing other women to live by my personal standards. It's pro-choice not pro-abortion... I choose what's best for me and my family and I have enough faith in other women to respect their ability to do the same.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

http://jezebel.com/5972605/when-is-w...?post=55760968

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by squirrely girl

OMG NO NO NO NO NO! NOT EVER!

One doesn't have to make specific choices for one's own life to be a feminist... but one sure as hell doesn't get to enact policies that limit women and still call themselves a feminist.

This is the woman that decided rape victims should pay for their own rape kits... ya know, to save money.

Sarah Palin is no more a feminist that those female twits that make a (really good) living telling women to get back in the kitchen.

As to the topic of abortion, I don't think it's mandatory that a person personally be okay with abortion, rather they shouldn't seek to deny other women that choice. Personally, I have pretty specific limits on my comfort with choosing abortion for myself (rape, threat to my life/health, fetal conditions incompatible with life) but I would never dream of forcing other women to live my my personal standards. It's pro-choice not pro-abortion... I choose what's best for me and my family and I have enough faith in other women to respect their ability to do the same.

I have to disagree. You can have different political views and still be a feminist. She believes that women can hold equal positions that a man can including the presidency of the United States. A single issue like rape victims having to buy their own rape kits comes down to a Republican vs Democrat type issue and does not disqualify her as a feminist. I don't agree with a lot or practically anything she stands for, but she doesn't believe in holding women back to 1950s standards.