If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[msl2008]

one of my favorite quotes:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King Jr.

the way i take that quote to mean is that everyone can be happy and nice and giggity when things are going well. however, when the going gets tough, only in those tough times can you tell who your true friends are. example: your friends are going out with you to a party and you all have fun and are partying. everyone is having a good time. you get drunk and can't stand up and your friends are all hooking up with girls. the one that ditches the girl is the one who is your true friend b/c he took the harder path. relate to pledging: you're out pledging on a friday night with your pledge brothers while your friends are all partying. you didn't study your information so everytime you get something wrong you pledge brother has to do 20 pushups. his arms are tired from having done say 100 pushups in a one hour span. don't you feel guilty for having him do it but at the same time respect that he's out here with you doing pushups for you while your other friends are partying and having fun? which is the easier path? giving up your friday night to be with your pledge brothers doing pushups or partying and having fun?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

one of my favorite quotes:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King Jr.

the way i take that quote to mean is that everyone can be happy and nice and giggity when things are going well. however, when the going gets tough, only in those tough times can you tell who your true friends are. example: your friends are going out with you to a party and you all have fun and are partying. everyone is having a good time. you get drunk and can't stand up and your friends are all hooking up with girls. the one that ditches the girl is the one who is your true friend b/c he took the harder path. relate to pledging: you're out pledging on a friday night with your pledge brothers while your friends are all partying. you didn't study your information so everytime you get something wrong you pledge brother has to do 20 pushups. his arms are tired from having done say 100 pushups in a one hour span. don't you feel guilty for having him do it but at the same time respect that he's out here with you doing pushups for you while your other friends are partying and having fun? which is the easier path? giving up your friday night to be with your pledge brothers doing pushups or partying and having fun?

First of all, when Martin Luther King said that, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean, "Allow people to humiliate you, make you feel stupid, and force you to do thing against your will, just so that you can feel accepted and be their friends."

Your friend helping you out when you're drunk at a party doesn't mean that he's taking the "harder path"... he's being a friend. If my friend is falling down drunk, I'm going to take care of him/her, no matter who's trying to hook up with me. That shouldn't be a difficult choice for anyone.

You're doing pledge activities on a Friday night. Your friends are out partying. Whether you're doing pushups or coloring pretty pictures, what's the difference? You still have to be there and not party. I don't understand this argument.

[ASTalumna06]

And MysticCat... I didn't mean to imply that you thought hazing was ok for guys. I completely understand where you're coming from. I can understand the example that you gave earlier, with the Order of the Arrow and Ordeal. I think that things like this can be an excellent test of someone's strength. And there are obviously differences between this, and joining a fraternity.

Order of the Arrow is through Boy Scouts of America, and I would imagine that these things are supervised in some way. With fraternities, on each campus, you have 18-22 year-old college students supervising 18-22 year-old college students.

With the Order of the Arrow, the people partaking in this are in Boy Scouts. They have been trained through the organization to deal with things like this. They weren't just thrown out into the woods by themselves to learn how to survive on their own.

And with fraternities and pledging, many times, the process is not explained. When hazing activities occur, pledges don't know what's coming at them until they're in the middle of it. There are young men who wish to join a fraternal organization that boasts a reputation of building men of character, emphasizing good academics, involving help with numerous philanthropic projects, and aiding in the development of social skills... and instead, they are bombarded with physical challenges and mental anguish that they weren't anticipating.

I can appreciate the idea of having people work together, solve problems, and get out of hard situations as a group. However, I don't think that ridiculous physical requirements and being yelled at constantly will help to build better fraternity (or sorority) members. I'm not implying that you were saying this, MysticCat. I'm just saying it in general.

[AGDee]

As a Boy Scout parent and an involved volunteer with my GLO, when they showed us the Order of the Arrow video, my first thought was "This is hazing and there's no way my son is going to do this". My ex-husband, who is not Greek, whispered to me "I hope he doesn't want to do this because I am not comfortable with this at all." To date, my son has been invited to membership 3 times and has declined. I haven't said a word to him, but I'm secretly glad. I'm also glad he has no interest in doing the Polar Bear. Somehow, I'm not convinced that *my* almost 13 year old is up to handling the Ordeal or the Polar Bear. He already gets sick after every camp out because he doesn't sleep!

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

one of my favorite quotes:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King Jr.

Applying an MLK quote to fraternity hazing = a reach.

And a fail.

And a gross misuse of a great man's words.

And stupid.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

one of my favorite quotes:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King Jr.

the way i take that quote to mean is that everyone can be happy and nice and giggity when things are going well. however, when the going gets tough, only in those tough times can you tell who your true friends are. example: your friends are going out with you to a party and you all have fun and are partying. everyone is having a good time. you get drunk and can't stand up and your friends are all hooking up with girls. the one that ditches the girl is the one who is your true friend b/c he took the harder path. relate to pledging: you're out pledging on a friday night with your pledge brothers while your friends are all partying. you didn't study your information so everytime you get something wrong you pledge brother has to do 20 pushups. his arms are tired from having done say 100 pushups in a one hour span. don't you feel guilty for having him do it but at the same time respect that he's out here with you doing pushups for you while your other friends are partying and having fun? which is the easier path? giving up your friday night to be with your pledge brothers doing pushups or partying and having fun?

Just saw this, but I can't believe you'd try to defend hazing with MLK's words.

You have shitty friends if they'll leave you drunk somewhere for some ass.

LOL @ "out pledging one Friday night." Maybe I'm confused, but are you saying parts of your pledge class are pledging while others are out partying, or your pledge class is pledging while your non-Greek friends are out partying? If it's the former, there are some bigger issues in the GLO. If it's the latter, why would random outsiders come in to pick up your slack?

[Kansas City]

mls2008 -

You're making a huge assumption that brotherhood can only be created through joint physical difficulties between the members. You are having the trouble connecting the arguments since it is only the current, un-initiated pledgeclass that is forced into this bonding. Your particular example becomes hazing when it excludes the upperclassmen (including the pledge educator) since they are not participating in the "punishment" for a member failing to learn their s**t. And ... to go a step further, by the upperclassmen not participating (by doing push-ups too) in this ritual, you don't have brotherhood, you have a group of people (pledges) that hate the initiated members for inflicting this punishment upon them creating cliques within your organization that then tear apart the brotherhood you are trying so desperately to build.

Finally, as to your example about helping an intoxicated brother following a party, I personally would be less willing to help a person, no matter his letters or affiliation if that person was a total d**k to me. What goes around comes around and if you want help from your brothers, perhaps you should help them instead of yell at them and require them to do physical punishments.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And MysticCat... I didn't mean to imply that you thought hazing was ok for guys. I completely understand where you're coming from. I can understand the example that you gave earlier, with the Order of the Arrow and Ordeal. I think that things like this can be an excellent test of someone's strength. And there are obviously differences between this, and joining a fraternity. . . .

I can appreciate the idea of having people work together, solve problems, and get out of hard situations as a group. However, I don't think that ridiculous physical requirements and being yelled at constantly will help to build better fraternity (or sorority) members. I'm not implying that you were saying this, MysticCat. I'm just saying it in general.

I see what you're saying.

Originally Posted by AGDee

As a Boy Scout parent and an involved volunteer with my GLO, when they showed us the Order of the Arrow video, my first thought was "This is hazing and there's no way my son is going to do this". My ex-husband, who is not Greek, whispered to me "I hope he doesn't want to do this because I am not comfortable with this at all." To date, my son has been invited to membership 3 times and has declined. I haven't said a word to him, but I'm secretly glad. I'm also glad he has no interest in doing the Polar Bear. Somehow, I'm not convinced that *my* almost 13 year old is up to handling the Ordeal or the Polar Bear. He already gets sick after every camp out because he doesn't sleep!

I'd agree that 13 is probably too young for OA. But I'm sorry you consider it hazing, because I can assure you it is not, not by any reasonable definition of that term. (Sorry if I'm being too blunt.) No way would the BSA approve of it if it were. Like I said, it was a pivotal event in my youth, and there was not a single second of it where I thought I was being hazed then or, looking back on it now, where I would consider anything done to be hazing.

Originally Posted by msl2008

and for the ppl who say that hazing is against the law, obviously everyone knows that. but lots of things are against the law that people do and the government can't do anything about till it's too late. so let's be realistic here.

Of course, what the government can do about it after the fact is convict you of a crime. Or, should a hazing victim (or his survivors) bring a civil suit, award lots of money in damages.

Just trying be realistic.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'd agree that 13 is probably too young for OA. But I'm sorry you consider it hazing, because I can assure you it is not, not by any reasonable definition of that term. (Sorry if I'm being too blunt.) No way would the BSA approve of it if it were. Like I said, it was a pivotal event in my youth, and there was not a single second of it where I thought I was being hazed then or, looking back on it now, where I would consider anything done to be hazing.

I think the fact that it is overseen by adults helps. I don't see the day of service as hazing. I think the "not speaking" and the camping out alone are the iffy parts. I will say that I did appreciate that they were upfront about what the Ordeal involved. Most of the boys in our troop receive an invitation to OA as soon as they get their First Class, which is usually at age 11/12. This troop is an Eagle producing troop. They encourage achieving Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class in your first year. Star after 6 months, Life after 6 more months and then they may take a year or two to finish Eagle. My son had just turned 11 when he crossed over so by 12, had achieved Tenderfoot and Second Class and had one requirement left for First Class. He has all the requirements for Star now, except the Board of Review and he'll be 13 next week. In fact, he'll probably have his BoR on Monday, the day before his 13th birthday. So yeah, they're on a fast track. If he decides some day to do OA, I won't stop him, but I don't know that *I* will feel totally comfortable that weekend! I just kept thinking during that video that if a fraternity didn't allow their members to talk and made them sleep alone in a remote area, it would be considered hazing. The video made a point to say that it IS not hazing like fraternities do, which kind of got my goat too..lol.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I think the fact that it is overseen by adults helps. I don't see the day of service as hazing. I think the "not speaking" and the camping out alone are the iffy parts.

I guess I can see why you might think that, but even under stophazing.org's definition, it doesn't seem to me like these things aren't hazing. I've said a little more below.

Most of the boys in our troop receive an invitation to OA as soon as they get their First Class, which is usually at age 11/12. This troop is an Eagle producing troop. . . . In fact, he'll probably have his BoR on Monday, the day before his 13th birthday. So yeah, they're on a fast track.

Wow, our troop moves fast, but not that fast. Even so, I don't think I've ever heard of a troop where the invitation to OA is almost that automatic. I've known plenty of guys who go through Scouts for years without getting tapped out.

BTW, good luck to him on his BoR. My 11-year-old will get his Scout badge Monday night.

If he decides some day to do OA, I won't stop him, but I don't know that *I* will feel totally comfortable that weekend! I just kept thinking during that video that if a fraternity didn't allow their members to talk and made them sleep alone in a remote area, it would be considered hazing.

It's not really that alone in a remote area. We would go out into the woods as a group. We'd stop every 5-10 steps, and then the guide would say the guy next in line "go 20 steps that way." It's more like being scattered around the woods, far enough apart to feel like you're on your own, but close enough together (and with people in charge close by) to be safe (and to hear other guys snoring ).

As for the not-speaking, I think there is a difference between what was often done in fraternities and what is done in OA. Traditionally, many fraternities forbade pledges from speaking to anyone during Hell Week or some similar period, except as necessary in class or with professors. That did isolate the pledge on campus. With OA, what we're talking about is not speaking to anyone during the Ordeal itself, when the only people you will encounter are those participating in the Ordeal. Those leading will also not speak except as necessary to give direction. I particularly remember stopping the work at various points during the day and being given something (short) to read and ponder. Through the day, these readings built on each other and prepared you for the initiation ceremony. It really makes for a service day where there is a chance to think about what matters.

The video made a point to say that it IS not hazing like fraternities do, which kind of got my goat too..lol.

LOL, that would have irked me, too. But it just goes to show that they know what a lot of people will assume.

[ECUJacob]

So what's the difference between this and a football coach yelling at you or a drill sargeant yelling at you.

That's an interesting distinction. I have to agree with the others in that a football coach and drill sergeant are on a different level than your Pledge Educator.

i think when it comes down to it, it's all about what the individual is willing to do and we should hold that individual responsible. we are talking about 18+ year olds who are technically adults right? if they want to join an organization no matter what kind it is, they have to accomplish whatever the tasks are that they're assigned. if they don't want to, find another organization to join simple as that. what i don't understand is why the us govt has to hold people's hands all the time and intervene for things that people should have the right to do and not do themselves. this is not like someone is forcing you to do something. you can always walk away if you want.

You are right that adults have the right to make their own decisions and deal with the consequences, good or bad. The problem lies in levels of responsibility. All fraternities/sororities are student organizations. Although they may not all be recognized by their university/school, they are still composed of students. Therefore, it is incumbant upon the host academic institution to ensure their safety and well-being. Moreover, if a student organization does something questionable that results in a death, injury, and/or lawsuit, the local organization, national organization, university/school, and state could all be named in the lawsuit. Clearly they will want to protect there interest/investment in you as a student. Therefore, rules/laws have been established to do so.

[msl2008]

So what's the difference between this and a football coach yelling at you or a drill sargeant yelling at you. I think that for some, being hazed can be a great experience if done correctly. For others, not so much so. There's two ways to look at everything. Sometimes I wonder if hazing was legal, if there would be so many people against it. Or if no one died from it. Would we be having this discussion then?

And KSUviolet, please post something more constructive instead of "oh, your argument is stupid and you fail." please explain the reasoning behind that. just b/c you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

So what's the difference between this and a football coach yelling at you or a drill sargeant yelling at you. I think that for some, being hazed can be a great experience if done correctly. For others, not so much so. There's two ways to look at everything. Sometimes I wonder if hazing was legal, if there would be so many people against it. Or if no one died from it. Would we be having this discussion then?

What football coach or drill sergeant would ONLY yell at you? You know just as well as I do that the yelling is accompanied by physical activity. The physical training and yelling are necessary and used in the field and, if not done, could possibly result in injury. This is not the case in GLOs.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by msl2008

So what's the difference between this and a football coach yelling at you or a drill sargeant yelling at you.

A drill sergeant, if you're in the military, and a football coach, if you play on a football team, are not your peers.

A fraternity brother is your peer, even if they're active and you're a pledge.

I'm not allowing someone who's less than a year older than me and in no position of true authority to get in my face.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

A drill sergeant, if you're in the military, and a football coach, if you play on a football team, are not your peers.

A fraternity brother is your peer, even if they're active and you're a pledge.

I'm not allowing someone who's less than a year older than me and in no position of true authority to get in my face.

The bolded part highlights how these are very socially constructed categories. A drill sergeant would be a nobody if everyone treated him/her like a nobody.

Pledges are sometimes older than the ones pledging them. That means nothing. The "authority" comes in the fact that the member is where the pledge wants to be.

Whether the "big sisters" are telling that person she HAS to wear a dress to a ritual ceremony or she HAS to (insert activity that would be considered hazing), the person feels obligated for reasons beyond official titles. Deference and authority matter if the people create those power relationships.