If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[Kansas City]

mls2008 - Are you sure that you joined a Greek organization and not the army?

I can understand a need for what you may call non-harmful hazing for certain organizations (sports teams, military, etc.) because they serve the organizational standards of having a physically strong body but to my limited knowledge, most recognized Greek organizations prefer to focus on values outside of a member's physical ability.

Whereas most collegiate Greek organizations focus on values such as strong mind and service to community, why do you feel the need to test a new members brawn? Large biceps and running laps do nothing to further the organization's goals where study hours, philanthropic participation and perhaps new member quizzes better help to reach the organizations ideals.

Instead of requiring physical tasks and yelling at new members to "prove their worth", why couldn't your members prove their worthiness by donating # hours to a philanthropy or by achieving a pledgeclass GPA greater than 3.5/4.0?

[BadCat25]

Whatever any of you think about hazing the fact remains that if you haze your university will shut you down. Many of you just can't seem to understand that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BadCat25

Whatever any of you think about hazing the fact remains that if you haze your university will shut you down. Many of you just can't seem to understand that.

I think everyone understands that's a possibility (in some places more than others). Many just choose to ignore the law/university policy where this is concerned.

Hazing hasn't become an issue in recent years due to the morality of it all. I wish I could say our organizations were all so self-conscious regarding such moral issues. Hazing became bad juju because of the liability issues involved with it. That's why when you look at your organization's policy as to what constitutes hazing, you have some odd things there, e.g., scavenger hunts.

Be that as it may, the law is what the law is and our organization's and school's policies are what they are. We follow those rules or we suffer the consequences. If we think attaching a moralistic argument to it helps, so be it, the moral argument does fit and it does make sense within the context of today's culture and today's 'more evolved' state of morality.

As for effective alternatives, if you're part of a national organization, I guarantee that your national organization has developed some sort of national programming which you're probably being encouraged to adopt at the chapter level.

Through (most) national programming, we can provide those same rights of passage, engender that same loyalty, basically work to the same ends without placing the futures of our respective organizations (national and local) in jeopardy.

It's hard to discuss that with any particularity though -- national programming, while similar with some organizations is very dissimilar with others (e.g., Sig Ep).

[ECUJacob]

Ok...assuming you do use the point system right? How does that show any type of brotherhood. That just means that you have time to give to the organization.

All of the point sections pertain directly to personal development and increasing maturity appropriate for one's age. Five of the nine sections involve direct interaction with brothers and their fellow pledges. While doing those five items (community service, intramurals, chapter functions, etc.), brotherly bonds are formed and strengthened.

...why should I trust or treat this person any differently then anyone I could've met in any random club?

The same question could be asked of you regarding someone you've yelled at and scared into doing any sort of physical activity. When did brotherhood change from confidence, trustworthiness, and support to physical fitness, servitude, and displays of (non-existent) superiority? From my viewpoint, someone who fulfills all of the obligations in my OP are the prime example of what it means to be a good brother.

These 2 deaths aren't b/c of pushups. One is b/c of water intoxication and one is b/c he was basically beaten to death.

You're right. However, please note that the water intoxication took place while the pledges were doing physical activities (push ups). But I wasn't addressing that issue. I was proving your statement wrong from the original post:

However, out of the hundreds of news articles I've read and anti-hazing sites I've visited, I do not recall any that had someone dying b/c he/she was doing pushups/situps/running etc. They were all either drinking or being beaten to death.

The few examples I provided easily proved otherwise. Members don't only die from over-intoxication or accidents. At times, they suffer injuries (or death) at the hands of their "brothers".

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

I can agree with the fact that males and females are different. I do, however, believe that they can be taught the same things without hazing. I know that there are "rites of passage" that men sometimes feel they need to overcome. But why can't it be done in a constructive way? And why can't pledges and brothers alike participate in these activities?

For example: I was on a swim team for years. Eventually, they started having a retreat once a year. One time, we decided to go camping (in Vermont in January!). The catch: We were split randomly into groups of 3. We were given a map, a compass, and a walkie. On the map were 4 marked locations (firewood, tents, water, campsite). Each group had to hike, find each location, and bring each item to the campsite. There were 6 large logs of firewood on a sled, 2 tents, and a large container of water. With only 3 people in each group, it was probably one of the most challenging things that I've done. By the end (6 hours later) groups were helping each other, and everyone felt like they accomplished something (together).

If you're going to build brotherhood, why are you excluding the BROTHERS from these activities? I don't see why the few weeks of pledging is the only time that people are challenged. If you're doing something constructive, have everyone participate. THAT'S how you build a unified fraternity. Not by exerting your "power" over someone else by having them do pushups.

Originally Posted by Kansas City

mls2008 - Are you sure that you joined a Greek organization and not the army?

I can understand a need for what you may call non-harmful hazing for certain organizations (sports teams, military, etc.) because they serve the organizational standards of having a physically strong body but to my limited knowledge, most recognized Greek organizations prefer to focus on values outside of a member's physical ability.

Exactly. My brother is a good-looking kid, who's on the Dean's List, who works hard, and who would probably give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. He didn't play football cuz he probably would have been crushed. He's just not built for it. Are you telling me you'd turn him away because he couldn't do 50 pushups while you screamed in his face?

I find it entertaining that some fraternity chapters will hold rush events, accept new members (or pledges) based on their grades and how they get along with the rest of the brothers... but then during pledging, they yell at them, segregate them, and the only thing that determines whether they'll become a brother is if they can clean the house, do pushups, and get bitched at without quitting. Makes sense.

[KSUViolet06]

Also, consider the fact that you could haze the crap out of a kid, then he could get initiated, and then never come around and just be a half-assed brother. What was the point of all of your pushups, yelling, and screaming?

I know plenty of guys who took some crap during pledging, but got initiated and did the bare minimum of participation. It proves that hazing does not = more involved brothers who care more about the fraternity.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I can agree with the fact that males and females are different. I do, however, believe that they can be taught the same things without hazing.

I do too. I hope I made that clear. I'm simply saying that I think the successful alternatives, for males at least, don't ignore some of the reasons hazing occurs to begin with.

I know that there are "rites of passage" that men sometimes feel they need to overcome. But why can't it be done in a constructive way? And why can't pledges and brothers alike participate in these activities? . . . If you're going to build brotherhood, why are you excluding the BROTHERS from these activities? I don't see why the few weeks of pledging is the only time that people are challenged. If you're doing something constructive, have everyone participate.

At the risk of taking this too far off, I think that maybe this is a situation where, while recognizing that males and females are different, you're not recognizing how. Aside from what I said earlier about "proving themselves" (and let's face it -- for lots of males, rightly or wrongly, that means primarily proving themselves physically), this gets at a different conversation we've had numerous times here at GC. Most fraternities with which I'm familiar treat pledges (or whatever term they use) differently from brothers. It's not like the NPC, where new members are treated in many if not most respects like sisters. In my experience, fraternities typically do not consider a pledge to be a brother until, toward the end of the pledge period, the chapter votes to initiate him and then in fact does initiate him.

This doesn't mean that a good chapter isn't going to provide ample opportunity for pledges and brothers to do things together. But in most fraternities, they're not likely to act like a pledge is a brother either.

Kevin is right -- I think most fraternities have tried to create national programs that work to the same end in a manner consistant with the fraternity's ethos/culture.

And 33girl is right -- fraternities are from Mars, sororities are from Venus.