If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kansas City

Knight shadow beat me to the question ... How do push-ups and sit-ups prove brotherhood more more than living your organizations values (example of the point system)? I find that sisterhood (and probably fraternal brotherhood) is better created through participation in organization events and interaction with members doing everyday things like going to the library instead of making a pledge do meaningless things like run laps while being yelled at.

Okay, I know that there are lots of discussions on this elsewhere, but I'm going to go ahead and jump in and basically repeat (with a little modification) what I said in one of those discussions (called Hazing Works!).

Before I offer my $0.02, I'll state for the record that I do not advocate hazing and that I support my fraternity's anti-hazing initiatives. What I say has more to do with thinking about replacements for hazing than supporting hazing.

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To address what KansasCity said that I bolded, I'm not sure that males and females are the same in this regard. We talk about building brotherhood and bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component, maybe more so for males, that I think often is not addressed. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally and historically, rites of passage typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor in a service project (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion and admission to the initiation ceremony, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned his place among the initiated. I know I did; I still think of Ordeal weekend as a pivotal weekend of my youth.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "works" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join and promotes bonding among those tested together. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials.

Again, I do not advocate hazing. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals and satisfy this need to be tested and proven worthy in a way that doesn't involve hazing.

As with most things, I don't think this is about "male or female" at all.

Certain practices existed for reasons of earning one's place and bonding. It's simply the case that these practices were taken to the extreme and the concept of "hazing" has become synonymous with "pledging" and other rites of passage.

Rites of passage are extremely important to both males and females. There are rites of passage in many if not most voluntary and involuntary memberships. The disagreement is regarding which rites of passage are deemed "hazing." This disagreement is not along gender lines, as far as I'm concerned.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

To DrPhil's disappointment, I'm going to follow-up on this boy/girl discrepancy.

MysticCat, are you suggesting (by the bolded (emphasis mine)) that boys have fewer rites of passage than girls, or that boys need the rites moreso than girls? The first time I read your post, I thought you meant the former (that boys have fewer RoP than girls), but now I'm thinking you meant the latter. I don't know that it matters either way, but I find it interesting that you differentiate between the genders.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

As with most things, I don't think this is about "male or female" at all.

. . .

Rites of passage are extremely important to both males and females. There are rites of passage in many if not most voluntary and involuntary memberships. The disagreement is regarding which rites of passage are deemed "hazing." This disagreement is not along gender lines, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd agree with a lot of what you say. My invocation of gender is more about such rites being different, not about whether it's hazing for females but not hazing for males or the like.

Originally Posted by SydneyK

To DrPhil's disappointment, I'm going to follow-up on this boy/girl discrepancy.

MysticCat, are you suggesting (by the bolded (emphasis mine)) that boys have fewer rites of passage than girls, or that boys need the rites moreso than girls? The first time I read your post, I thought you meant the former (that boys have fewer RoP than girls), but now I'm thinking you meant the latter. I don't know that it matters either way, but I find it interesting that you differentiate between the genders.

With the caveat that I was typing of the top of my head, without consulting a study, I think I was really thinking more the former, although I know I have read articles suggesting both. And maybe I focused on males because I am one and that's what I'm familiar with.

Sure, there are some rites of passages: Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, Quinceañeras, confirmations, even Deb Balls. But many of these occur at an early enough age (13 or earlier-15) that they don't really function as marking the transition to adulthood, even if they say they do. Of course, fraternity/sorority initiation doesn't so much mark entrance to adulthood as acceptance into a brotherhood/sisterhood. But I think such an initiation carries some significance for making the new member a better man or woman.

Is this making any sense?