When the novelty wears off...

[EvanWilliams]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

PS- going back to the thread of your title, is it possible that maybe you are just tiring a bit of everything you see? In other words, was this same rush approach already happening to a certain extent when you joined?

There is nothing wrong with getting a bit tired of the whole "Greek" thing in your junior and senior years. In fact, I think that is a good sign that you are growing up.

While what someone wears or drives matters when rushing in a huge way, in the real world this is not how you will choose your employees or professional associates (at least not if you want to be successful and respected)- so it is a good thing to realize that the whole rush process matters at that time in life, but is not a good way to go about life in general.

This really puts things into perspective. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks!

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by EvanWilliams

I'm on the same page as you, EE.
The problem I have with a dues increase is that we are losing out on many quality guys because of finances. I see your point because you are right. There are plenty of guys to choose from even after we jack the prices up.
And I agree that dressing appropriately is very important. Sure, I rock the sperrys and polos- but only because that's what I grew up on. Not everyone did, and again, sometimes we are missing out because someone wore an Izod.

I hope the dues increase is not creating hardships for guys already in the chapter. That would be a bad thing.

In terms of missing out on somebody because of the cost, I personally think that is the hardest thing about doing rush. It sucks, but the only solace I can offer is to point out how bad the alternative is.

My GLO does not let a chapter put people on alumni status before graduation because they cannot afford the fraternity. We do have a hardship option, but it is hard to get a waiver like that and it is temporary in nature only. So for us, if someone can't pay dues anymore and leaves, we have two choices. Either the chapter continues to pay the national part of his dues until graduation, or we have to take his roll number.

And either way, the guys ends up embarassed and distanced forever- or is kicked out altogether.

Again, does not make turning down a good guy during rush any easier, but it is vital to know people can afford it before they come in.

As for your last comment about someone wearing Izod, that brought to mind something that came up in a discussion I had years ago when I was an active.

Some of us voted down a potential rushee because he wore a wierd rock T-shirt to a rush party (I think it was Marilyn Manson but I forget.)

His supporters argued that he just needed molding and guidance etc.

His detractors argued that the fact he wore that shirt to the event in the first place showed that he had no concept at all of what we were about or our environment.

And considering back then almost all of our rushees were committed to pledge before school even started- that was the winning argument.

This goes back to the whole earlier argument about where guys in a fraternity come from.

At a small private school with students from around the US, the Izod vs. Polo thing seems ridiculous.

But at a big southern state school where the top tier houses recruit out of a handful of high schools and those people in those high schools come to college with a full understanding of the social norms of the greek organizations if they are suitable candidates- Izod versus Polo means everything.

(Funny you mention Izod. When I was in college they were long gone having been the "poor man's Polo" for as long as I can remember. But recently they are back in the US- and about 6 times the price of Polo. That should be interesting.)

[Benzgirl]

For any of your brothers that criticize men who wear Izod....
Lacoste always shows on 7th Avenue but Polo brand of Ralph Lauren does not (Ralph Lauren has several labels with Polo and Lauren being the lowest on the totem pole).

I'm not a guy and I'm not from the south, so I can't tell you what to think. I personally won't wear a Polo, but don't think ill of those who do. I think your brothers are being too materialistic, and you are right, this is starting to sound like SEC sorority recruitment where emphasis is on looks.

[33girl]

He said Izod, not Lacoste. They are 2 different things. I would explain how, but I really gotta pee.

[Benzgirl]

I'll correct myself. Izod use to be licensed by Lacoste. Guess my fashion knowledge is behind the times.
Either way, the rest of my opinion stands.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

For any of your brothers that criticize men who wear Izod.... Lacoste always shows on 7th Avenue but Polo brand of Ralph Lauren does not (Ralph Lauren has several labels with Polo and Lauren being the lowest on the totem pole).

I'm not a guy and I'm not from the south, so I can't tell you what to think. I personally won't wear a Polo, but don't think ill of those who do. I think your brothers are being too materialistic, and you are right, this is starting to sound like SEC sorority recruitment where emphasis is on looks.

It's not really about whether Izod is more expensive than Polo, it is about whether a person fits in.

If someone would have come to one of my chapter's rush parties in a $2,000 casual outfit from someone like Armani or Gucci, they would have been shunned just as readily as someone who showed up with the lizard shirt.

Having lots of money does not alone do the trick- a person has to fit in.

The top tier fraternities and sororities at the SEC schools are a social continuance for most of their members. They came from the same places and they are, at least in most cases, headed in a certain direction.

Decades ago the same could have been said for many venerable chapters in the Northeast.

Maybe that is elitist, but if someone doesn't like it there are plenty of other GLOs on campus where they would be happy. And those other GLOs will tend to have their own particular character that is not suited for everyone.

At the end of the day, all chapters of all fraternities have their own particular rush criteria which can be as rational as GPA or as irrational as a few actives don't like your socks.

But the top tier GLOs get the criticism because they have wealth and privilege which inspires jealousy in others (not attacking you Benzgirl, this is a general commentary on what I have seen here and elsewhere.)

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

The top tier fraternities and sororities at the SEC schools are a social continuance for most of their members. They came from the same places and they are, at least in most cases, headed in a certain direction.

Snore!

So you are born together, are raised together, go to school together, have your babies together, and die together? What about diversity? What about broadening your horizons? Sounds pretty dull to me, but then what does a stupid midwestern hick know about southern social continuance?

So what you are saying is that the "top" (I use that loosely) houses in the SEC living in a vacuum?

I'll stay up north, thank you!

[33girl]

You hear all the time about how the members of the top groups at Ole Miss or Bama end up going into state politics, etc. - their connections having been made thru the GLO they joined. This happens all the time in small towns, it's just in this case it's the whole state.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

it is vital to know people can afford it before they come in.

I understand why you say this, and why the decision of whether or not someone can afford the fraternity is based on appearances/family name/etc... But when a freshman comes through rush wearing the right clothes, driving the right car, basically demonstrating that he comes from money, what happens when the fraternity discovers that he himself (and not his dad) is responsible for his dues?

I know many well-to-do families who insist that their children pay their own sorority/fraternity costs. Does the fraternity just assume that, if the guy faces financial difficulties, his daddy will just cough up the cash simply because he can? Or if the guy lets it slip that he's financially responsible for himself, will that negatively affect his chances of getting bid?

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words here, but the fact that someone's parents have money doesn't mean that that person has it, too.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

Snore!

So you are born together, are raised together, go to school together, have your babies together, and die together? What about diversity? What about broadening your horizons? Sounds pretty dull to me, but then what does a stupid midwestern hick know about southern social continuance?

So what you are saying is that the "top" (I use that loosely) houses in the SEC living in a vacuum?

I'll stay up north, thank you!

I've been wondering this ever since this nation latched onto this diversity kick: What is so great about diversity? It is human nature to gravitate towards those like ourselves. I understand that it is essential to respect other cultures, races, ways of life, backgrounds, etc. but why should I feel the NEED to associate with these people, much less let them into my fraternity. I am not saying that we should go out of our way to keep uniformity, but I am saying that we should NOT go out of our way to make things diverse either. Top tier fraternities are just an example of people from similar backgrounds, with similar lifestyles and goals gravitating together.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

I've been wondering this ever since this nation latched onto this diversity kick: What is so great about diversity? It is human nature to gravitate towards those like ourselves. I understand that it is essential to respect other cultures, races, ways of life, backgrounds, etc. but why should I feel the NEED to associate with these people, much less let them into my fraternity. I am not saying that we should go out of our way to keep uniformity, but I am saying that we should NOT go out of our way to make things diverse either. Top tier fraternities are just an example of people from similar backgrounds, with similar lifestyles and goals gravitating together.

No one is saying "diversity for the sake of diversity" in social (or I dare say any other) GLOs. What benzgirl is against is the OMG THEY'RE NOT FROM HERE mentality that prevents you from getting to know someone that you might have a lot in common with and like a lot, even if they weren't raised in the same town or in the same social strata. I mean looking at where I come from, who would have thought I'd be friends with, among others, a 60 year old chemical engineer, a young mother from Peoria and a nice Jewish girl from New York City?

It seems that judging from some posts on here, there are chapters that DO make an effort to keep things "uniform." That's their prerogative, but don't be surprised if the majority of people you meet think it's narrow minded.

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No one is saying "diversity for the sake of diversity" in social (or I dare say any other) GLOs. What benzgirl is against is the OMG THEY'RE NOT FROM HERE mentality that prevents you from getting to know someone that you might have a lot in common with and like a lot, even if they weren't raised in the same town or in the same social strata. I mean looking at where I come from, who would have thought I'd be friends with, among others, a 60 year old chemical engineer, a young mother from Peoria and a nice Jewish girl from New York City?

It seems that judging from some posts on here, there are chapters that DO make an effort to keep things "uniform." That's their prerogative, but don't be surprised if the majority of people you meet think it's narrow minded.

Exactly. It's simply my anti-bubble boy mentality and is something my parents taught me from the time I was little. I feel as if I am a better person by crossing paths with people from various countries, religions, races and socio-economic classes. I have learned from my experiences.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

Snore!

So you are born together, are raised together, go to school together, have your babies together, and die together? What about diversity? What about broadening your horizons? Sounds pretty dull to me, but then what does a stupid midwestern hick know about southern social continuance?

I agree. My chapter was not a top tier chapter. We were proud to identify ourselves as second tier because of what we saw as the dark side of being a top tier. Yes we were expensive and had a gigantic house, but we were far more open minded in our rush selections and unlike many chapters at my alma mater, we pretty much automatically welcomed brothers who transferred to our school from other chapters.

The vast majority of people from my high school went to one particular top tier chapter, but that does not mean all of us wanted to live the very boring existence you have pretty well summed up in all its dullness.

I was just explaining how it is in that environment. But luckily even though I did not fit in, I did manage to grow up and have a life. Amazing, no?

To SydneyK,

At many of the kinds of schools we are discussing, certainly at mine, the overwhelming majority of kids in the top tier fraternities and sororities had parents and grandparents who were also Greek. They know and appreciate the importance of the experience, and they do not skip out on their kids when it comes to paying the dues.

As a chapter advisor, my advice to any chapter is to contact parents of all new pledges to welcome their son to the fraternity. I have very rarely observed situations where a kid was going to pay for it on his own and have it work out that way. Even working full time in college, it is nearly impossible to keep up with dues and the related expenses of the lifestyle on your own.

[breathesgelatin]

EvanWilliams, good for you for standing up for your beliefs. I would agree that it's extremely important not to alienate alumni.

One comment I would have re: the small town vs. city thing is that a lot of times small town guys may not have as much of a clue about "appropriate" male dress. For example at my school there were a variety of extremely elite, predominantly southern fraternities, but some drew mostly from southern cities (and more specifically a few major high schools in those cities) and others drew from more widely across the south's small towns. The difference was that the ones drawing from smaller towns tended to be a little more rough around the edges and enjoy slightly different pursuits (eg, hunting, 4-wheeling) whereas the city-oriented groups were more "polished" and probably a bit more concerned about dress and a guy's looks. I would say that overall the "city" frats were considered as stronger groups, but I'm speaking about the top 4-5 fraternities in the first place, so obviously all of them had strong reputations. I don't by any means think that the small town guys were from "worse" families or less wealthy than the city guys, just a slightly different culture.

Speaking of high fraternity dues, check out my alma mater's:

http://studentaffairs.wlu.edu/campus...arges_2007.pdf

Keep in mind that all members (not new members) have to pay for board and dues. And sophomores have to live in too. I can't even imagine shelling out what the sophomores pay....

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

The difference was that the ones drawing from smaller towns tended to be a little more rough around the edges and enjoy slightly different pursuits (eg, hunting, 4-wheeling)

That describes my chapter perfectly. We didn't have the best mixers, but if you ever wanted to go hunting or fishing- someone had something planned just about every weekend.