When the novelty wears off...

[EvanWilliams]

I've been a member of my fraternity for two years now. I enjoyed pledging (surprisingly) and had a good time my second semester. But now the novelty is wearing off, and all the stupid stuff during chapter is really wearing on me.

I'm down south, where tiers rule the greek systems. We have always been a very strong house, but this semester, we've broken into the top of the top and pushed out another chapter.
Since the last couple semesters- we've been teetering on the edge and struggling to break down the tradition- it seems that many of my brothers have the same thought processes as sorority girls. During rush, about our social schedule, about brothers' girlfriends. It's disgusting and embarassing. Seriously, we were turning away rushees based on looks and clothing. Some of my favorites were shunned for visiting lower tiered chapters. Everyone seems to think that we're such badasses, and even though we are (sorry), I don't appreciate that attitude. Out of control is the only phrase that comes to mind.

I usually don't enjoy any sort of emotional discussion, but this is really serious to me. Has anyone ever experienced something similar? Sometimes I just feel like my goals are different from the vast majority of my chapter now. Any thoughts?

Also, I know how crazy some of you GreekChatters are, so I'll just fess up and say, 'yes', this is a sockpuppet name, and 'no', I will not tell any of you who I am.

[TSteven]

Sock-puppet or no, I'll answer your question just the same.

If the issue was that some rushees "were shunned for visiting lower tiered chapter", and you feel they are worthy of a bid, then it is YOUR responsibility to make the chapter aware of their worth.

[EvanWilliams]

I mentioned that I thought my goals and outlooks were becoming more different from the chapters (mine haven't changed).
In a group of 130+, it's very difficult to change opinions. Sure I could win over a decent number, but for the most part, people respect the majority.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by EvanWilliams

I mentioned that I thought my goals and outlooks were becoming more different from the chapters (mine haven't changed).

In a group of 130+, it's very difficult to change opinions. Sure I could win over a decent number, but for the most part, people respect the majority.

Then with all due respect, your brother's "views" will - and should be - "best" for the chapter (as a whole).

Having said this doesn't mean you should not try to impress on your brothers your view point. In many situations, they (brothers/sisters) simply do not know there is a difference in opinion.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Then with all due respect, your brother's "views" will - and should be - "best" for the chapter (as a whole).

I disagree. Especially when it comes to being superficial sometimes a kind of "mob mentality" takes over. It's up to the clear-headed ones to knock some sense into people.

To the OP, I think it's great that you're letting your thoughts on the matter be known. Keep doing that. Stand your ground and there's got to be some other brothers who feel the same way and will respect your standards. You might be able to build a power-base from there.

If not, at least you know which brothers share your values. You might not be able to turn the chapter around (who knows?) but you'll know who to hang out with.

Good luck!

[AOII Angel]

Your chapter is suffering from success! When you work to improve the status of your chapter in order to get the guys that only want to go to top tier groups, then those guys will only want top tier guys. It's a nasty reality that people who are satisfied with their membership but not their tier don't think about when they dream of bigger things. Often, this means that you create a group that wouldn't pledge you again if you went through rush. It's very difficult to find a happy medium in that situation.

[rufio]

try looking back on your fraternity's values and see if the the current attitude and actions are promoting them. you should make it known if the principles are not being upheld. even being a top house, everyone needs to be reminded of the ideals of the fraternity. alot of chapters who are top tier get shut down from not being values-based.

[KyleMcGuire1983]

Evan Williams.............Jack Daniel's cheaper and nastier cousin. Nice display name.

Crappy situation. If I were you I'd just keep up resistance until you graduate, don't compromise your principles and don't surrender by going "inactive" or "early alum". It drives me nuts when I see a brother resign from an office or stop putting in effort when things don't go in his way (whether or not he's right!)

[EE-BO]

This is a good thread and it shows how things work in some Greek systems- including where I went to school.

Every fraternity with a solid core of brothers that is financially solvent is a perfectly fine chapter that is the right "home" for somebody.

But that is completely separate from being in the top tier socially in a large Greek system at a school where Greek life is an important part of one's social path.

I think this matters a lot more in the South- hence the frequent reference to "Southern"
greek systems (of which I am a product myself), but the real core issue is one of whether being Greek at a particular school has a lot of overlap with one's personal social status and future professional connections.

Being a top tier chapter is expensive. I know $1,600 a semester in dues sounds high to you- but mine were $2,500 ten years ago, and I lived in the house! (People not living in the house paid even more.)

On the matters of rush, sure how people dress seems superficial- but it is not entirely so. How a person dresses says a lot about where they came from, what is important to them, and how much money they have.

Even at your old dues rate of $1,400 a semester, it is important to know that the guys you pledge are going to be able to pay those dues for 4 years. What car they drive and what their parents do for a living is also important when considering these factors.

It is not just the dues after all. Formals alone were $500+ events for actives when I was around between tuxedo rentals, dinner out etc.

Being a top tier chapter means you need to have members who can afford to spend several thousand dollars a year on social events and dues, and not miss the money.

And if there are no shortage of rushees who meet that criteria, then you have to be selective using financial means as a basic qualification.

Let me ask you something, in the last 2 years has your chapter rushed most of its newer members from a small number of high schools? This is usually how this kind of thing gets started- not just your specific situation but any situation where the general character of a chapter begins to make a fundamental shift.

Whether public or private, each individual high school sending lots of kids to college is going to have a predominance of students at a certain financial level and with a general social scene.

If a fraternity gets to where most of its members come from just a handful of similar high schools (which is very common at top tier southern chapters), then those attitudes can dominate the tone of the chapter.

This happens especially in higher social tiers because people at that level tend to remain within their own inner circle for life. Not everyone does- but it is certainly a "home base" comfort zone. And so in this case a fraternity becomes one more step in a pretty set path in life socially as opposed to being a new experience in a more diverse environment.

One is not better or worse than the other, but there it is.

[EvanWilliams]

I'm on the same page as you, EE.
The problem I have with a dues increase is that we are losing out on many quality guys because of finances. I see your point because you are right. There are plenty of guys to choose from even after we jack the prices up.
And I agree that dressing appropriately is very important. Sure, I rock the sperrys and polos- but only because that's what I grew up on. Not everyone did, and again, sometimes we are missing out because someone wore an Izod.

As far as the high school thing goes- no. We're not recruiting heavily from the same schools.
BUT, we are bringing in more from the same bigger cities and less from the small towns. Maybe that has something to do with it...

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by EvanWilliams

I'm on the same page as you, EE.
The problem I have with a dues increase is that we are losing out on many quality guys because of finances. I see your point because you are right. There are plenty of guys to choose from even after we jack the prices up.
And I agree that dressing appropriately is very important. Sure, I rock the sperrys and polos- but only because that's what I grew up on. Not everyone did, and again, sometimes we are missing out because someone wore an Izod.

I hope the dues increase is not creating hardships for guys already in the chapter. That would be a bad thing.

In terms of missing out on somebody because of the cost, I personally think that is the hardest thing about doing rush. It sucks, but the only solace I can offer is to point out how bad the alternative is.

My GLO does not let a chapter put people on alumni status before graduation because they cannot afford the fraternity. We do have a hardship option, but it is hard to get a waiver like that and it is temporary in nature only. So for us, if someone can't pay dues anymore and leaves, we have two choices. Either the chapter continues to pay the national part of his dues until graduation, or we have to take his roll number.

And either way, the guys ends up embarassed and distanced forever- or is kicked out altogether.

Again, does not make turning down a good guy during rush any easier, but it is vital to know people can afford it before they come in.

As for your last comment about someone wearing Izod, that brought to mind something that came up in a discussion I had years ago when I was an active.

Some of us voted down a potential rushee because he wore a wierd rock T-shirt to a rush party (I think it was Marilyn Manson but I forget.)

His supporters argued that he just needed molding and guidance etc.

His detractors argued that the fact he wore that shirt to the event in the first place showed that he had no concept at all of what we were about or our environment.

And considering back then almost all of our rushees were committed to pledge before school even started- that was the winning argument.

This goes back to the whole earlier argument about where guys in a fraternity come from.

At a small private school with students from around the US, the Izod vs. Polo thing seems ridiculous.

But at a big southern state school where the top tier houses recruit out of a handful of high schools and those people in those high schools come to college with a full understanding of the social norms of the greek organizations if they are suitable candidates- Izod versus Polo means everything.

(Funny you mention Izod. When I was in college they were long gone having been the "poor man's Polo" for as long as I can remember. But recently they are back in the US- and about 6 times the price of Polo. That should be interesting.)

[Benzgirl]

For any of your brothers that criticize men who wear Izod....
Lacoste always shows on 7th Avenue but Polo brand of Ralph Lauren does not (Ralph Lauren has several labels with Polo and Lauren being the lowest on the totem pole).

I'm not a guy and I'm not from the south, so I can't tell you what to think. I personally won't wear a Polo, but don't think ill of those who do. I think your brothers are being too materialistic, and you are right, this is starting to sound like SEC sorority recruitment where emphasis is on looks.

[33girl]

He said Izod, not Lacoste. They are 2 different things. I would explain how, but I really gotta pee.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by Benzgirl

For any of your brothers that criticize men who wear Izod.... Lacoste always shows on 7th Avenue but Polo brand of Ralph Lauren does not (Ralph Lauren has several labels with Polo and Lauren being the lowest on the totem pole).

I'm not a guy and I'm not from the south, so I can't tell you what to think. I personally won't wear a Polo, but don't think ill of those who do. I think your brothers are being too materialistic, and you are right, this is starting to sound like SEC sorority recruitment where emphasis is on looks.

It's not really about whether Izod is more expensive than Polo, it is about whether a person fits in.

If someone would have come to one of my chapter's rush parties in a $2,000 casual outfit from someone like Armani or Gucci, they would have been shunned just as readily as someone who showed up with the lizard shirt.

Having lots of money does not alone do the trick- a person has to fit in.

The top tier fraternities and sororities at the SEC schools are a social continuance for most of their members. They came from the same places and they are, at least in most cases, headed in a certain direction.

Decades ago the same could have been said for many venerable chapters in the Northeast.

Maybe that is elitist, but if someone doesn't like it there are plenty of other GLOs on campus where they would be happy. And those other GLOs will tend to have their own particular character that is not suited for everyone.

At the end of the day, all chapters of all fraternities have their own particular rush criteria which can be as rational as GPA or as irrational as a few actives don't like your socks.

But the top tier GLOs get the criticism because they have wealth and privilege which inspires jealousy in others (not attacking you Benzgirl, this is a general commentary on what I have seen here and elsewhere.)

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

it is vital to know people can afford it before they come in.

I understand why you say this, and why the decision of whether or not someone can afford the fraternity is based on appearances/family name/etc... But when a freshman comes through rush wearing the right clothes, driving the right car, basically demonstrating that he comes from money, what happens when the fraternity discovers that he himself (and not his dad) is responsible for his dues?

I know many well-to-do families who insist that their children pay their own sorority/fraternity costs. Does the fraternity just assume that, if the guy faces financial difficulties, his daddy will just cough up the cash simply because he can? Or if the guy lets it slip that he's financially responsible for himself, will that negatively affect his chances of getting bid?

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words here, but the fact that someone's parents have money doesn't mean that that person has it, too.