Sororities and Feminism

[Old_Row]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

Very interesting perspective and something that I've never thought of before.

Isn't this always true, though, not just when Greek Life is involved?

I mean, I probably wouldn't go tanning for a job interview, but most women would probably wear some makeup and spend some time doing their hair. In fact, many women do this every single day. I think this is somewhat natural. For instance, women usually have longer hair than men - which may take more time to groom. Women may have to blow dry and straighten/curl/etc their hair, when men can usually just let their hair dry because it only takes five minutes to do so.

Women, in general, spend much more time grooming themselves than men. I'm sure most men who are attending fraternity rush parties haven't gone out and gotten their nails done or spent much time contemplating their outfits. However, sorority women (especially in the SEC or other competitive schools), are usually advised to spend lots of time planning outfits, possibly getting their nails done, getting their hair cut/colored, etc.

However, this is an everyday occurrence. Women, in general, are going to spend much more time getting ready for a date than men. And I think that it is somewhat of an equality issue. For me, personally, I grew up on a farm. Before I prepared for sorority recruitment, I didn't even know what a "cocktail" dress was when I was looking for something to wear on pref day. I'd love to throw my hair up in a ponytail, have no makeup on, wear jeans and a t shirt and show my true personality. However, I can't do that if I want to be judged on the same level as the girls who are decked out in Lily Pulitzer dresses and spent two hours on their hair. Men don't have to work nearly as hard to be on the same level as other men.

I know!!! I love looking good and spend a lot of time on my appearance every day. I was that way before I ever joined and would be that way even if I were not in a sorority. It makes me feel good to look good.

Originally Posted by HQWest

LOL - I have had several seniors not in the sororities tell me that they wish they had a big sister who supported them - or who had told them they were doing something stupid when they were a freshman.

Haha. I think a lot of girls can benefit from having someone tell them to watch out for things. There are so many new experiences and men who will prey on vulnerable freshmen and a girl can get really messed up before she knows it if she doesn't have good friends to help her out. I think it's more like having some guardian angels who have common interests and goals and want to watch out for you and your feelings so you don't get hurt.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Both a male and female PNM are expected, for example, to dress appropriately and be clean and well-groomed. But only the female PNM is expected to wear make-up, go tanning, etc.

Don't even kid yourself. LOTS of my guy friends are just as scrupulous with their tanning and workouts as any girl is with makeup. There is much, much, MUCH more pressure on men these days to maintain their appearances than there used to be.

Originally Posted by Old_Row

Haha. I think a lot of girls can benefit from having someone tell them to watch out for things. There are so many new experiences and men who will prey on vulnerable freshmen and a girl can get really messed up before she knows it if she doesn't have good friends to help her out. I think it's more like having some guardian angels who have common interests and goals and want to watch out for you and your feelings so you don't get hurt.

DBB is not talking about a super naive freshman who just fell off the turnip truck and hasn't done anything below the waist who believes the guy when he says he just wants to go back to his room "to talk." We're talking about women who like sex, who find it physically and mentally pleasurable, and who don't feel they need to be pinned or someone's "girlfriend" to enjoy it. Some women can sleep with 100 guys and be the most mentally happy and stable girl out there. Some women can sleep with one guy and be completely f'ed up. Different strokes for different folks.

Some chapters are open minded about this, but some are not, and some are selective about it. In other words, if you sleep with a bunch of fraternity guys that's OK, but if you sleep with townies you're a whore and get your pin pulled.

[HQWest]

Ah well, besides the fact that feminism is not equal to promiscuous, just like many women are surprised that we recommend they clean up their Facebook pages before recruitment - that kind of behavior would be frowned on in many circles and may hamper a woman's future choice of careers (in law, medicine, or education or if they need a security clearance, for example). It begs the question about their decision making process. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find it frowned upon on my campus.

In my experience, "slut-shaming" has little to no effect on that type, but the behavior in the extreme can be a sign of other problems, and it is good to have someone to talk to about it or even counseling. (Especially if we are talking about someone just starting college as a freshman?)

I thought by feminism - the discussion was to be about advances and leadership in the workplace or education?

[Titchou]

I totally agree, KDCat.

[UofM-TKE]

My experience about this is from the view of a fraternity guy during the era when feminism was young: the '70s, but I think that it may be of interest to some. We need to know where we were to know where we are.

When I was a Pledge, our school still made all of the women sign in and out of the dorms in the evening (much like Emily Dickenson College in Animal House), and the sororities were not housed because they needed to be 'kept safe'. There were other restrictions and assumptions implied by the In Loco Parentis attitude as well.

But within a few years, this had all been swept aside and everyone was treated equally. I'm not saying that all was perfect, only that there was general equality between the genders on the part of the school.

This change was largely caused by the women themselves. The female campus leadership, the most active and visible women, and the women who were willing to help out whenever the school asked for a favor, were almost always sorority women, so they had influence. These 17 through 21 years olds changed a lot of ossified attitudes of self-important men.

Many of the sorority women that I knew, would not have considered themselves Feminists while others would, but in matters of equality like these, they were all together.

They would never put what happened back then as "They all stood together to ....". They would think that that would be making too much of it. They just knew what was right. They choose their sisterhood. They chose to live their lives according to their own principles. They choose to be treated as equals, so they were.

[HQWest]

I don't think that feminism means that I need to go out and burn my bra on the quad or that I can't enjoy a nice manicure.

I like to think of it like the Nike insoles in my ColeHaan pumps?

If you look at how far things have come in the last hundred years, it's pretty surprising. Most of my girls don't realize.

Some Examples:

100 years ago at Cal - they were very progressive in that they let women take chemistry - but they had to sit behind a screen so they would not distract the men.

In the 20s(?) Texas agreed to allow women as students - but didn't build any dorms, so sororities and the Scottish Rite built housing.

At about that same time, southern schools started allowing women to take classes, but there were limitations since the only really acceptable professions were nursing or teaching or maybe accounting in your father's business. The chemistry building built at Texas at that time had no ladies rooms (except a small one by the office for the secretaries) - because they didn't expect to need them.

Chemistry buildings built at UGA and Cal in the 1960s would also be built without facilities for women in the research sections.

I have a friend who - in the 60s - received a scholarship offer that actually includes in the letter that she should not Accept it so that a deserving young man could make better use of it? She would go on to be one of the first women to get a degree in chemistry on another campus instead.

At that same time, women on my campus had to wear heavy raincoats over sweatsuits in 90 degree heat to walk to PE classes on the other side of campus so as not to be disruptive? (Note: no changing facilty for women by the PE center?) They also had to sign out of the dorm or get a letter of permission from their parents to go to the lake with a friend on the weekend.

And last summer - Iran fired many tenured professors in fields they decided were "unsuitable" for women.

So Yes, I still think that we have an obligation to give a step up to the little sisters behind us.

ETA: even if all you can do is provide a good example...

[Titchou]

Hey, hey, ladies. No spats. THis is an interesting thread and I don't think we want to have it shut down.

The term "feminism" has a bad connotation for some people. I don't think of it negatively but some people see bra burners, Gloria Steinam, etc when they hear the word. But then I thought Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was a little conservative back in the day. So some people don't want that term used to describe them - though if they knew the definition, they would support it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Hey, hey, ladies. No spats. THis is an interesting thread and I don't think we want to have it shut down.

The term "feminism" has a bad connotation for some people. I don't think of it negatively but some people see bra burners, Gloria Steinam, etc when they hear the word. But then I thought Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was a little conservative back in the day. So some people don't want that term used to describe them - though if they knew the definition, they would support it.

My point exactly. Feminism isn't a bad thing. People have tried to turn into something ugly when it isn't. Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine.

[HQWest]

Webster's defines feminism as either
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Obviously, the confusion comes when one confuses the feminist ideal with a particular political movement. Much the same as one could be a Republican but not agree with the entire party platform.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by HQWest

Webster's defines feminism as either
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Obviously, the confusion comes when one confuses the feminist ideal with a particular political movement. Much the same as one could be a Republican but not agree with the entire party platform.

And, there are those who truly believe the sexes are not equal. I know my SIL probably would fall into this group as a believer in patriarchy. There aren't that many women that fall into that group, though.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by HQWest

Webster's defines feminism as either
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Obviously, the confusion comes when one confuses the feminist ideal with a particular political movement. Much the same as one could be a Republican but not agree with the entire party platform.

This is how I think of feminism and I'm always confused about how a woman who has gone to college, held a job in an underrepresented field, owned property, or voted in an election can say they are not a feminist. Without feminism, none of those things would have been possible.

The feminist movement has had a great benefit to both men and women. It has raised our standard of living as we can have dual income households, taking the pressure off of the man to be the sole provider. Men can also choose any occupation they want, even things that were traditionally "female only" such as nursing. Men have different relationships with their children, more healthy relationships, than simply being the disciplinarian in the family. It also allows men to not always be stoic and strong. It also allows men to take paternity leaves in some cases (something I think should be universal!)

Feminism is about choice. It allows families to choose how they want to function, whether they decide, as a unit, to have a stay at home mom, stay at home dad, or two working parents. It allows women to leave abusive situations because they can have a job and own their own house. It allows divorced families to set up joint custody arrangements allowing the dads to remain involved in raising their kids. It is more the norm here for courts to grant joint custody than to automatically grant the mom full custody.

als, this is not an attack on you, but it is difficult for me to understand how you can say you do not believe in equal rights for women when you've done all of these non-traditional things that would not have been possible 50 years ago. I sometimes wonder if women of your generation don't realize how things were for my mother's generation. My mom had to quit her job as a bank teller as soon as she was visibly pregnant. Do you believe that is right?

In my experience, our sororities definitely support feminism. Much of our programming is about developing leadership skills and empowering women to make decisions. We encourage scholastic success and provide networking opportunities to aid our members in the work force. If you join a sorority simply for the mixers, you're going to be really disappointed because you spend a lot more hours doing other things with the chapter.

[Tulip86]

Originally Posted by AGDee

This is how I think of feminism and I'm always confused about how a woman who has gone to college, held a job in an underrepresented field, owned property, or voted in an election can say they are not a feminist. Without feminism, none of those things would have been possible.

The feminist movement has had a great benefit to both men and women. It has raised our standard of living as we can have dual income households, taking the pressure off of the man to be the sole provider. Men can also choose any occupation they want, even things that were traditionally "female only" such as nursing. Men have different relationships with their children, more healthy relationships, than simply being the disciplinarian in the family. It also allows men to not always be stoic and strong. It also allows men to take paternity leaves in some cases (something I think should be universal!)

Feminism is about choice. It allows families to choose how they want to function, whether they decide, as a unit, to have a stay at home mom, stay at home dad, or two working parents. It allows women to leave abusive situations because they can have a job and own their own house. It allows divorced families to set up joint custody arrangements allowing the dads to remain involved in raising their kids. It is more the norm here for courts to grant joint custody than to automatically grant the mom full custody.

als, this is not an attack on you, but it is difficult for me to understand how you can say you do not believe in equal rights for women when you've done all of these non-traditional things that would not have been possible 50 years ago. I sometimes wonder if women of your generation don't realize how things were for my mother's generation. My mom had to quit her job as a bank teller as soon as she was visibly pregnant. Do you believe that is right?

In my experience, our sororities definitely support feminism. Much of our programming is about developing leadership skills and empowering women to make decisions. We encourage scholastic success and provide networking opportunities to aid our members in the work force. If you join a sorority simply for the mixers, you're going to be really disappointed because you spend a lot more hours doing other things with the chapter.

Very well said AGDee, I agree on every aspect.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Someone asked upthread:

WHAT IS RAPE CULTURE?
In a rape culture, people are surrounded with images, language, laws, and other everyday phenomena that validate and perpetuate, rape. Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.”

[Titchou]

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I understand why some women do not want to be viewed as feminists. A lot of our mothers and grandmothers were that way. Having the man assume all the responsibilities can be a liberating thing for some people. It certainly takes away a lot of worry in some cases. It's not a track I want to be on but my mother sure as heck was! I won't go into all the family history here but ,suffice it to say, at the age of 29 my father was left with 5 dependent female family members and one brother with Down Syndrome for whom he was totally responsible. I think that's when his views shifted and my sister and I were definitely raised to be different from our mother, grandmother and greatgrandmother from that moment on...over our mother's objections.

While I strongly disagree with her attitude, it was, after all, HER right to be that way...though it certainly caused a lot of issues after my father passed away. Personally it is not a way I want to live. Having spent about 20 years in the construction industry when women were not as visible there are they are today, I've been in both worlds as women move towards equality in the workplace and it hasn't been easy. But I have found that men for the most part will respect you when they see that you are capable and know what you are doing. And you have to earn that respect by being professional. I don't mind being "tested" - I've done it to them when they didn't even realize it!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I understand why some women do not want to be viewed as feminists. A lot of our mothers and grandmothers were that way. Having the man assume all the responsibilities can be a liberating thing for some people. It certainly takes away a lot of worry in some cases. It's not a track I want to be on but my mother sure as heck was! I won't go into all the family history here but ,suffice it to say, at the age of 29 my father was left with 5 dependent female family members and one brother with Down Syndrome for whom he was totally responsible. I think that's when his views shifted and my sister and I were definitely raised to be different from our mother, grandmother and greatgrandmother from that moment on...over our mother's objections.

While I strongly disagree with her attitude, it was, after all, HER right to be that way...though it certainly caused a lot of issues after my father passed away. Personally it is not a way I want to live. Having spent about 20 years in the construction industry when women were not as visible there are they are today, I've been in both worlds as women move towards equality in the workplace and it hasn't been easy. But I have found that men for the most part will respect you when they see that you are capable and know what you are doing. And you have to earn that respect by being professional. I don't mind being "tested" - I've done it to them when they didn't even realize it!

This thought process is coming back with a group of very religious people called "Quiverfull" that believe a woman's place is in the home and God has placed the man as the head of the household in order to provide for the family. It's very interesting to read some of the plans these groups make to almost live off the grid. I don't personally understand why a woman would want to do this, or a man for that matter, since I don't want to be the sole supporter of any able adult.