Fraternity Member Branded TCU

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I believe it is hard to haze an initiated member. I truly don't know the laws on this but am sure someone here does. I my opinion, since a member or brother holds no power over another member it could not be hazing. It could be assault though if it was against their will but this does not seem to be the case here. Anyway if Kappa Sig National does anything to the chapter I will be ticked. Like I said this is just drunk dumb**ses who acted like idiots. Wonder if one of the girls branded him?

People consent to hazing not just to gain the status of membership, but to maintain status through membership.

You feel compelled to do something because the choice to NOT do it will lead to social ostracization.

Google "post-pledging" and you can see an example or two of this.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It is still hazing, because it even if you comply it is because of coercion.

You cannont concent based on coercion. You either concent or you are coerced. He said he concented to have a hot metal iron placed against his ass cheek, but didn't consent to be burned. This is stupid. That's like saying I meant to go swimming, but am mad now that I'm wet.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It is still hazing, because it even if you comply it is because of coercion.

From a legal/criminal/disciplinary standpoint, it's probably off-the-mark to say you can't consent to hazing. Obviously as a practical matter, you can, although that consent can indeed be based on coercion and given under duress.

But the relevant legal factor is that consent is not a defense to a charge of hazing.

Originally Posted by baci

Keep in mind hazing refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group - or to maintain full status in a group - that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate.

While this may be generally true, it all depends on how "hazing" is defined by the relevant state law or institutional policy. In my state, it's only hazing if there's physical injury involved. Humiliation and emotional harm don't meet the legal definition.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by wombat

He wasn't consenting to being hazed. He was consenting to getting a brand just like some idiot might consent to getting a tattoo. If the tattoo is bad it does not make it hazing.

Yeah, everyone tell you to get branded or you don't get in his hazing. Agreeing to a brand that comes out bad because your friends don't hire a professional (seriously, it usually the same place as the tattoo shop if you want one bad enough.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Agreeing to a brand that comes out bad because your friends don't hire a professional (seriously, it usually the same place as the tattoo shop if you want one bad enough.)

Getting branded by a nonmember (professional or not) is usually frowned upon. Chapters and areas usually have a person or people who know what they're doing eventhough the person isn't a professional and doesn't get paid.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by wombat

He wasn't consenting to being hazed. He was consenting to getting a brand just like some idiot might consent to getting a tattoo. If the tattoo is bad it does not make it hazing.

Yeah, everyone tell you to get branded or you don't get in his hazing. Agreeing to a brand that comes out bad because your friends don't hire a professional (seriously, it usually the same place as the tattoo shop if you want one bad enough.)

[DrPhil]

He's a member of a fraternity who consented to getting a brand. He's saving face for his wealthy helicopter family. And they are reacting as a wealthy helicopter family would.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

He's a member of a fraternity who consented to getting a brand. He's saving face for his wealthy helicopter family. And they are reacting as a wealthy helicopter family would.

Did you see the video? That does not look like a branding that anyone would agree to. That looks like assault. My first reaction was the same as yours, but you can't expect him to take one in the *ss just because he has a prominent family. Would you say this to a rape victim who consented but said no once it got out of control? This event, by the looks of his wound, got wayyyyyy out of control!

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Did you see the video? That does not look like a branding that anyone would agree to. That looks like assault. My first reaction was the same as yours, but you can't expect him to take one in the *ss just because he has a prominent family.

How many brands have you seen?

There are some that turn out OK, but a lot of them end up looking like shit.

You (general you) should know what you're getting into before agreeing to get one.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

How many brands have you seen?

There are some that turn out OK, but a lot of them end up looking like shit.

You (general you) should know what you're getting into before agreeing to get one.

I've seen a few, but I actually have a lot of experience with burns. That brand was the result of multiple applications. They would have had to heat the brand and apply it to his skin more than once. The majority of brands I have seen have been a single sybol that is no larger than about 6". Anything larger risks skin sloughing since the skin around the brand will actually cook as well as the skin below the appliance. It may not look too terrible to you now, but the cell death will spread over the next few days...that's why he'll require several surgeries to repair the damage.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I've seen a few, but I actually have a lot of experience with burns. That brand was the result of multiple applications. They would have had to heat the brand and apply it to his skin more than once.

That is often how it is done. The majority of GLO branders (going back to the much more visible BGLO branding) do not have access to a commercialized symbol or nicely shaped wire so they use crappily shaped wire hangers and sometimes have to apply it more than once. Even those who do have access to a symbol often try to do "double branding" or put chapter symbols alongside the organization's symbols.

We don't know what tool and technique were used in this instance.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Anything larger risks skin sloughing since the skin around the brand will actually cook as well as the skin below the appliance. It may not look too terrible to you now, but the cell death will spread over the next few days...that's why he'll require several surgeries to repair the damage.

You're typing as a health expert.

Think along the lines of a dumbass drunk collegiate who knows nothing about burns and the negatives of branding.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I've seen a few, but I actually have a lot of experience with burns. That brand was the result of multiple applications. They would have had to heat the brand and apply it to his skin more than once. The majority of brands I have seen have been a single sybol that is no larger than about 6". Anything larger risks skin sloughing since the skin around the brand will actually cook as well as the skin below the appliance. It may not look too terrible to you now, but the cell death will spread over the next few days...that's why he'll require several surgeries to repair the damage.

Many of the brands I've seen have come from multiple applications. Not saying it's right, but it's not out of the ordinary.

He's a grown man who made a grown up decision. His bad.

I'm not really inclined to believe that he was "forced" into doing it. The Carter family is very prominent in FW, especially around the TCU area. I will agree with DrPhil again -- I think he did something stupid, got found out, and is now trying to save face.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Would you say this to a rape victim who consented but said no once it got out of control?

Anyway, my opinion will only be changed when I hear more about these "defensive wounds" that he supposedly has in places other than his ass. Until then, it looks like a horrible attempt at branding by a bunch of binge drinking and out of control college students. I don't assume hazing or assault solely based on that.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Anyway, my opinion will only be changed when I hear more about these "defensive wounds" that he supposedly has in places other than his ass. Until then, it looks like a horrible attempt at branding by a bunch of binge drinking and out of control college students. I don't assume hazing or assault solely based on that.

I just don't assume someone is lying because they have money and a privileged background. No one has been named and no fraternity has been maligned. It hurts no one to assume that this man was assaulted like he says. I also know that not many people could sit still while someone applied a white hot piece of metal to their skin multiple times even while drunk.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I just don't assume someone is lying because they have money and a privileged background.

Neither do I.

Take my posts within their full context. Not to mention, what's embedded in your posts is an assumption regarding my own background.