NPC adding new council members--do you think it could/will happen?

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Like being Black and gay are the same thing (wait, I already said that).

I was going to say something funny about Sen based on this above...

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

In my book, it is a sin to be gay. It is not a sin to be Black, although some would try to make you think it is.

Annnnnnnd now, it's not so funny.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

So we DO eventually fall into bigotry in this thread--but not a race war. Imagine that!

It's just another fun day on GC!!!

NPC/NPHC collaborations are rare, and I think a lot of it has to do with the self-segregating/highly secretive nature of some NPHC groups on some college campuses. Also, I've personally experienced a level of condescension from NPHC members who believe that "all [we] do is drink," or that our commitment isn't lifetime. That's not exactly uncommon.

But, that's totally fine with me.

And the reverse is true when it comes to perceived stereotypes about the NPHC - that we are all about line names, line numbers, our calls and stepping.

And, from what I've learned on GC, I don't see where the NPHC is any more selective than the NPC.

We both factor GPA as an important criteria, we both look for potential members who will represent our orgs well, we both have to deal with heli-moms and dads. A lot of the issue that the NPC has to deal with in membership selection are the same for the NPHC.

I think one difference is in the time frame that membership selection is done. For the NPC, it is all done over a 3 - 5 or 7 day period. For the NPHC, we typically offer interest meetings and seminars where people can participate over a semester before membership selection, or MIP, is started.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It's just another fun day on GC!!!



And the reverse is true when it comes to perceived stereotypes about the NPHC - that we are all about line names, line numbers, our calls and stepping.

And, from what I've learned on GC, I don't see where the NPHC is any more selective than the NPC.

We both factor GPA as an important criteria, we both look for potential members who will represent our orgs well, we both have to deal with heli-moms and dads. A lot of the issue that the NPC has to deal with in membership selection are the same for the NPHC.

I think one difference is in the time frame that membership selection is done. For the NPC, it is all done over a 3 - 5 or 7 day period. For the NPHC, we typically offer interest meetings and seminars where people can participate over a semester before membership selection, or MIP, is started.

Were you trying to teach me about the differences between NPC and NPHC groups?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I am personally not going to support laws that I think blatantly condone a sinful act.

Well golly, thanks for saving our souls! THANK GOD we have people out there who are going to do their best to keep the rest of us from sinning, by force if they have to!

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Were you trying to teach me about the differences between NPC and NPHC groups?

No. I was just trying to show that while you expressed concern over how the NPC is wrongly perceived, the same is true for the NPHC.

I'm saying that we both have PR issues.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by agzg

Well golly, thanks for saving our souls! THANK GOD we have people out there who are going to do their best to keep the rest of us from sinning, by force if they have to!

You're welcome!

And besides, I am only one person with one vote, but I will do my best.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I do think it would be helpful in a "can't we all just get along" kind of way if the NPHC chapters and NPC chapters would work more closely together at the campus level. When I was in school the NPHC chapters were quite strong, I think, but never knew a single woman who was a member of one. And yes, I've had black friends my whole life, so it wasn't that. It would be nice to have ALL the sororities on campus participating in flag football or attending each others philanthropies or whatever. Co-counsel mixers or exchanges?

My chapter did a few flag footballs and co-counsel mixers. It was fun but had no longterm gain unless the members were already friends or close acquaintances. These events were NPC events that NPHC orgs were expected to assimilate into. For those who hadn't already been familiar with NPHC orgs, it would often end up with ridiculous questions being asked of us or things like seeing NPCers throwing up the "pyramid" and OOO-OOOPing at nonGreek social gatherings; or seeing NIC men doing things like throwing up the "Omega hook." We often invited NPC and NIC to our events but the members (who weren't already our personal friends) would openly say things like "I don't know what I'm looking at right now"/"what are they doing?"/"this makes no sense to me." In other words, it made them feel uncomfortable to be the minority and to not always know everything that was going on. Welcome to "our" world.

We did wonderful social and philanthropic events with NIC orgs (NPC orgs were more apprehensive and that could be an intersection of gender, race, and NPHC-NPC effects). It worked well because all organizations were able to bring in their own experiences and expertise versus always being expected to assimilate. It also worked well because some of these NIC (and NPC) students were our close friends and we would talk about Greekdom in private. We finally decided to display our Greek unity across councils and conferences in public.

The coolest thing was when the Black NPCers and NICers would hang with us on a personal level and some were actually NPHC legacies. It was awesome because no one was judging or saying "why'd you join THIS org?!" They often felt the need to overcompensate and explain themselves until we told them that's unnecessary. Just be a cool person and never forget "who" you are.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I know this his been brought up on GC several times before. Flag Football and Date Parties are not necessarily on non-IFC/NPC members' radars. The entertainment/social events are typically the ones that non-IFC/NPC members get invited to, though.

Differences in chapter sizes and chapter event calendars often means that NPHC chapters will not want to participate in Flag Football and Date Parties. Some NPHC chapters during the '90s disliked "Badge Day" because of different protocol regarding wearing badges. Some of us will wear our symbols but not our actual badge around campus. Refusal to wear the actual badge was often interpreted as "NPHC not wanting to hang with the cool kids again!"

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

FYI - overall equality IS a civil rights issue. I don't think any members of the GLBT community are piggy-backing on the BLACK Civil Rights Movement.

It is a civil rights issue and I think well-informed people know that the (Black) Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s wasn't/isn't the only civil rights issue and civil rights movement in America. However, there are many members of the GLBT community who are piggy-backing on the Black Civil Rights Movement but with no ill intent. Some people (not just members of the GLBT community) feel it is a necessary and appropriate piggy-back for civil rights struggles that are either the exact same or close enough. Many feel as though the gay civil rights movement began around the same time as the Black civil rights movement because it all boils down to struggles of the oppressed and both individual-level prejudice and institutional-level discrimination.** If you have not encountered this in person, there is research on this; and references and discussions that can be found via Google.

** That ignores how there are plenty members of the GLBT community who are racist and there are plenty members of the Black community who are heterosexist.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

As long as it is clear and understood that one is not the same as the other. And that one can not and should not be used to justify the other, as the quote 33girl provided implied. That is what I was responding to.

I agree.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

In my self-professed literal interpretation and perception of the book, it is a sin to be gay. In my interpretation of the book, it is not a sin to be Black, although some would try to make you think it is.

I fixed that for you. Those who use the book to support racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings of Blacks claim to use a literal interpretation of the book in which God is both speaking personally (even answering prayers telling them that Blacks are nothingness and hate groups are necessary) and speaking to all believers. If that's a load of BS, as far as you're concerned, surely you can fathom how even scriptures perceived as pertaining to sexual orientation could have been human perceptions written in religious text.

I assume that you are a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong), as am I. My views of Christianity have changed very much over the past 10 years. My perspective doesn't have to apply to all Christians, though. Neither does yours. So, I assume that you aren't claiming that "your book" and your approach to Christianity are pure and correct whereas Christians who don't share your views don't understand the Book and have been hoodwinkedandbamboozled by the devil.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I am personally not going to support laws that I think blatantly condone a sinful act.

Does that mean you will not support it or will you remain neutral because "Jeeeeesus will work it out...."

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Nope, sorry, that's not how intolerance works. You hold bigoted beliefs about gays. I, on the other hand, have said nothing negative about your religion (in fact, I don't even know which religion it is), except that you shouldn't use it to justify your bigoted beliefs.

Actually, that's exactly how intolerance and bigotry work.

sigmadiva said something you perceived as bigoted. For the record, while I do not agree with her statement or share her belief, I'm not sure it really meets the definition of bigoted either, which is being intolerant of a differing belief, creed or opinion. Not thinking something is good or right or not supporting something is not necessarily the same as being intolerant of those who think differently.

But even if it was a bigoted statement, you responded with what can be perceived as an equally bigoted response: That your idea of what is right should trump someone else's religion, even when you don't know what that religion is. You even go so far as to tell her how she should and shouldn't approach her religion by telling her that she shouldn't use it to justify her bigotry. From my perspective, that doesn't put you in a very good position to call others out for intolerance or bigotry.

It is not intolerant to disagree with someone. It is not intolerant to argue vehemently against the beliefs of another. But it is intolerant to dismiss the beliefs of another on the grounds that they don't mesh with your own.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

NPC/NPHC collaborations are rare, and I think a lot of it has to do with the self-segregating/highly secretive nature of some NPHC groups on some college campuses. Also, I've personally experienced a level of condescension from NPHC members who believe that "all [we] do is drink," or that our commitment isn't lifetime. That's not exactly uncommon.

But, that's totally fine with me.

It just takes being open to learning about things that aren't always in your face. If all people go based on are the things that stupid college kids (across councils and conferences) tend to do and say, sure people will have certain perceptions. Those perceptions aren't completely wrong, because they do apply to some and even many, they just aren't 100% accurate and generalizable.

I learned a lot about non-NPHC lifetime commitments through GreekChat but also through things like meeting older NPCers and NICers at alumnae/alumni/graduate chapter events; seeing NPCers and NICers wearing letters and symbols 40+years after graduation; knowing that NPCers and NICers use membership for networking opportunities; etc.

If not for those things, I would only have the typical "this is just for college" cliche` to go based on.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

My chapter did a few flag footballs and co-counsel mixers..... " In other words, it made them feel uncomfortable to be the minority and to not always know everything that was going on. Welcome to "our" world.

Yeah, we (NPHC) participated in NPC-NIC Greek Week once, but it just did not click.

Those who use the book to support racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings of Blacks claim to use a literal interpretation of the book in which God is both speaking personally (even answering prayers telling them that Blacks are nothingness and hate groups are necessary) and speaking to all believers. If that's a load of BS, as far as you're concerned, surely you can fathom how even scriptures perceived as pertaining to sexual orientation could have been human perceptions written in religious text.

I know the Bible has been abused to justify a lot of things. All I'm saying is that when I read the NIV version, I've yet to come across a verse saying it is a sin to be Black, whereas there are references in both the Old and New Testaments that it is a sin to be gay.

I assume that you are a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong), as am I. My views of Christianity have changed very much over the past 10 years. My perspective doesn't have to apply to all Christians, though. Neither does yours. So, I assume that you aren't claiming that your approach to Christianity is pure or correct whereas Christians who don't share your views don't understand the Book and have been hoodwinkedandbamboozled by the devil.

Yes, I do consider myself to be a Christian, and yes, over the years my views have changed too. I'm not saying that my approach should apply to everyone else, but I think people are taking it that way. Probably because I am the only one who has expressed my view on this subject in this thread.

Does that mean you will not support it ....

I'm saying that I personally draw the line at gay marriage. If gay couples want to adopt kids (which I have come to accept over the years), leave their benefits to their SO, and not be descriminated against because they are gay, I get that.

or will you remain neutral because "Jeeeeesus will work it out...."

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I know people who say this!!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Actually, that's exactly how intolerance and bigotry work.

sigmadiva said something you perceived as bigoted. For the record, while I do not agree with her statement or share her belief, I'm not sure it really meets the definition of bigoted either, which is being intolerant of a differing belief, creed or opinion. Not thinking something is good or right or not supporting something is not necessarily the same as being intolerant of those who think differently.

But even if it was a bigoted statement, you responded with what can be perceived as an equally bigoted response: That your idea of what is right should trump someone else's religion, even when you don't know what that religion is. You even go so far as to tell her how she should and shouldn't approach her religion by telling her that she shouldn't use it to justify her bigotry. From my perspective, that doesn't put you in a very good position to call others out for intolerance or bigotry.

It is not intolerant to disagree with someone. It is not intolerant to argue vehemently against the beliefs of another. But it is intolerant to dismiss the beliefs of another on the grounds that they don't mesh with your own.

Exactly, bigotry exists on both sides of the aisle.

Yes, there is still an aisle and there are still sides.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I'm not saying that my approach should apply to everyone else, but I think people are taking it that way. Probably because I am the only one who has expressed my view on this subject in this thread.

No, for me it was because that's how you said it. You attempted to state definitively that "your book" says that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pretty sure you and I own the same Book. So, you aren't just making a statement about your own viewpoint, you are saying that it is there for all knowing eyes to see and accept.

As a fellow Christian, and someone who loves different opinions because they make the world interesting, I would never say believing that homosexuality is a sin is automatically bigoted unless that means that people can't disapprove of anything without automatically being a bigot. All I'm saying is that you can use your religion and the book to support your perceptions without implying that you are upholding a universal Christian TRUTH that has not been the least bit influenced by human interpretations and societal norms and values. Or, you can keep implying that (as most of my family and friends do) but be open to others' responses to your expressed viewpoints. The world is your oyster.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I'm saying that I personally draw the line at gay marriage. If gay couples want to adopt kids (which I have come to accept over the years), leave their benefits to their SO, and not be discriminated against because they are gay, I get that.

I respect your viewpoint and there are members of the GLBT community who agree with you for a number of reasons including religion. That's why there isn't just ONE approach to this topic.

The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is not bigotry. People can think and feel whatever the hell they like. They can even express those opinions as long as they are as tolerant of people's responses to their viewpoints. The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is ensuring that groups are not excluded on the basis of such viewpoints. Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

This is what makes me LOL about those who are bigoted against gays and feel that gay marriage will somehow erode the institution of marriage altogether. I don't know how much more MY life or MY personal relationships would change if gays were allowed to get married--I'd probably have a lot more weddings to attend, but that's about it.

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

This is what makes me LOL about those who are bigoted against gays and feel that gay marriage will somehow erode the institution of marriage altogether. I don't know how much more MY life or MY personal relationships would change if gays were allowed to get married--I'd probably have a lot more weddings to attend, but that's about it.

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

LOL.

Well, the lives of others do impact ours either immediately or over time. Across societies, norms, values, and laws have changed over time and these societies have changed with them (as either the direct cause of the change or a correlate of the change). Whether the change is perceived as positive or negative, there is change.

When I say "get out of the way," I'm not implying that people have no vested interest in what happens in a larger sense and that what happens has no impact on anyone beyond the actual actors.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, because that's how you said it. You attempted to state definitively that "your book" says that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pretty sure you and I own the same Book. So, you aren't just making a statement about your own viewpoint, you are saying that it is there for all knowing eyes to see and accept.

I made a statement based on what I've read in the Bible. Maybe we read different versions of the Bible, because they are out there.

As a fellow Christian, and someone who loves different opinions because they make the world interesting, I would never say believing that homosexuality is a sin is automatically bigoted unless that means that people can't disapprove of anything without automatically being a bigot. All I'm saying is that you can use your religion and the book to support your perceptions without implying that you are upholding a universal Christian TRUTH that has not been the least bit influenced by human interpretations and societal norms and values. Or, you can keep implying that (as most of my family and friends do) but be open to others' responses to your expressed viewpoints. The world is your oyster.

And we all understand TRUTH differently. I'm expressing the TRUTH as I understand it. You may have a different spin on it. That is okay.

The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is not bigotry. People can think and feel whatever the hell they like. They can even express those opinions as long as they are as tolerant of people's responses to their viewpoints. The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is ensuring that groups are not excluded on the basis of such viewpoints. Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

I agree.