NPC adding new council members--do you think it could/will happen?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I do think it would be helpful in a "can't we all just get along" kind of way if the NPHC chapters and NPC chapters would work more closely together at the campus level. When I was in school the NPHC chapters were quite strong, I think, but never knew a single woman who was a member of one. And yes, I've had black friends my whole life, so it wasn't that. It would be nice to have ALL the sororities on campus participating in flag football or attending each others philanthropies or whatever. Co-counsel mixers or exchanges?

My chapter did a few flag footballs and co-counsel mixers. It was fun but had no longterm gain unless the members were already friends or close acquaintances. These events were NPC events that NPHC orgs were expected to assimilate into. For those who hadn't already been familiar with NPHC orgs, it would often end up with ridiculous questions being asked of us or things like seeing NPCers throwing up the "pyramid" and OOO-OOOPing at nonGreek social gatherings; or seeing NIC men doing things like throwing up the "Omega hook." We often invited NPC and NIC to our events but the members (who weren't already our personal friends) would openly say things like "I don't know what I'm looking at right now"/"what are they doing?"/"this makes no sense to me." In other words, it made them feel uncomfortable to be the minority and to not always know everything that was going on. Welcome to "our" world.

We did wonderful social and philanthropic events with NIC orgs (NPC orgs were more apprehensive and that could be an intersection of gender, race, and NPHC-NPC effects). It worked well because all organizations were able to bring in their own experiences and expertise versus always being expected to assimilate. It also worked well because some of these NIC (and NPC) students were our close friends and we would talk about Greekdom in private. We finally decided to display our Greek unity across councils and conferences in public.

The coolest thing was when the Black NPCers and NICers would hang with us on a personal level and some were actually NPHC legacies. It was awesome because no one was judging or saying "why'd you join THIS org?!" They often felt the need to overcompensate and explain themselves until we told them that's unnecessary. Just be a cool person and never forget "who" you are.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I know this his been brought up on GC several times before. Flag Football and Date Parties are not necessarily on non-IFC/NPC members' radars. The entertainment/social events are typically the ones that non-IFC/NPC members get invited to, though.

Differences in chapter sizes and chapter event calendars often means that NPHC chapters will not want to participate in Flag Football and Date Parties. Some NPHC chapters during the '90s disliked "Badge Day" because of different protocol regarding wearing badges. Some of us will wear our symbols but not our actual badge around campus. Refusal to wear the actual badge was often interpreted as "NPHC not wanting to hang with the cool kids again!"

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

FYI - overall equality IS a civil rights issue. I don't think any members of the GLBT community are piggy-backing on the BLACK Civil Rights Movement.

It is a civil rights issue and I think well-informed people know that the (Black) Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s wasn't/isn't the only civil rights issue and civil rights movement in America. However, there are many members of the GLBT community who are piggy-backing on the Black Civil Rights Movement but with no ill intent. Some people (not just members of the GLBT community) feel it is a necessary and appropriate piggy-back for civil rights struggles that are either the exact same or close enough. Many feel as though the gay civil rights movement began around the same time as the Black civil rights movement because it all boils down to struggles of the oppressed and both individual-level prejudice and institutional-level discrimination.** If you have not encountered this in person, there is research on this; and references and discussions that can be found via Google.

** That ignores how there are plenty members of the GLBT community who are racist and there are plenty members of the Black community who are heterosexist.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

As long as it is clear and understood that one is not the same as the other. And that one can not and should not be used to justify the other, as the quote 33girl provided implied. That is what I was responding to.

I agree.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

In my self-professed literal interpretation and perception of the book, it is a sin to be gay. In my interpretation of the book, it is not a sin to be Black, although some would try to make you think it is.

I fixed that for you. Those who use the book to support racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings of Blacks claim to use a literal interpretation of the book in which God is both speaking personally (even answering prayers telling them that Blacks are nothingness and hate groups are necessary) and speaking to all believers. If that's a load of BS, as far as you're concerned, surely you can fathom how even scriptures perceived as pertaining to sexual orientation could have been human perceptions written in religious text.

I assume that you are a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong), as am I. My views of Christianity have changed very much over the past 10 years. My perspective doesn't have to apply to all Christians, though. Neither does yours. So, I assume that you aren't claiming that "your book" and your approach to Christianity are pure and correct whereas Christians who don't share your views don't understand the Book and have been hoodwinkedandbamboozled by the devil.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I am personally not going to support laws that I think blatantly condone a sinful act.

Does that mean you will not support it or will you remain neutral because "Jeeeeesus will work it out...."

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

My chapter did a few flag footballs and co-counsel mixers..... " In other words, it made them feel uncomfortable to be the minority and to not always know everything that was going on. Welcome to "our" world.

Yeah, we (NPHC) participated in NPC-NIC Greek Week once, but it just did not click.

Those who use the book to support racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings of Blacks claim to use a literal interpretation of the book in which God is both speaking personally (even answering prayers telling them that Blacks are nothingness and hate groups are necessary) and speaking to all believers. If that's a load of BS, as far as you're concerned, surely you can fathom how even scriptures perceived as pertaining to sexual orientation could have been human perceptions written in religious text.

I know the Bible has been abused to justify a lot of things. All I'm saying is that when I read the NIV version, I've yet to come across a verse saying it is a sin to be Black, whereas there are references in both the Old and New Testaments that it is a sin to be gay.

I assume that you are a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong), as am I. My views of Christianity have changed very much over the past 10 years. My perspective doesn't have to apply to all Christians, though. Neither does yours. So, I assume that you aren't claiming that your approach to Christianity is pure or correct whereas Christians who don't share your views don't understand the Book and have been hoodwinkedandbamboozled by the devil.

Yes, I do consider myself to be a Christian, and yes, over the years my views have changed too. I'm not saying that my approach should apply to everyone else, but I think people are taking it that way. Probably because I am the only one who has expressed my view on this subject in this thread.

Does that mean you will not support it ....

I'm saying that I personally draw the line at gay marriage. If gay couples want to adopt kids (which I have come to accept over the years), leave their benefits to their SO, and not be descriminated against because they are gay, I get that.

or will you remain neutral because "Jeeeeesus will work it out...."

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I know people who say this!!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I'm not saying that my approach should apply to everyone else, but I think people are taking it that way. Probably because I am the only one who has expressed my view on this subject in this thread.

No, for me it was because that's how you said it. You attempted to state definitively that "your book" says that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pretty sure you and I own the same Book. So, you aren't just making a statement about your own viewpoint, you are saying that it is there for all knowing eyes to see and accept.

As a fellow Christian, and someone who loves different opinions because they make the world interesting, I would never say believing that homosexuality is a sin is automatically bigoted unless that means that people can't disapprove of anything without automatically being a bigot. All I'm saying is that you can use your religion and the book to support your perceptions without implying that you are upholding a universal Christian TRUTH that has not been the least bit influenced by human interpretations and societal norms and values. Or, you can keep implying that (as most of my family and friends do) but be open to others' responses to your expressed viewpoints. The world is your oyster.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I'm saying that I personally draw the line at gay marriage. If gay couples want to adopt kids (which I have come to accept over the years), leave their benefits to their SO, and not be discriminated against because they are gay, I get that.

I respect your viewpoint and there are members of the GLBT community who agree with you for a number of reasons including religion. That's why there isn't just ONE approach to this topic.

The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is not bigotry. People can think and feel whatever the hell they like. They can even express those opinions as long as they are as tolerant of people's responses to their viewpoints. The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is ensuring that groups are not excluded on the basis of such viewpoints. Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

This is what makes me LOL about those who are bigoted against gays and feel that gay marriage will somehow erode the institution of marriage altogether. I don't know how much more MY life or MY personal relationships would change if gays were allowed to get married--I'd probably have a lot more weddings to attend, but that's about it.

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

This is what makes me LOL about those who are bigoted against gays and feel that gay marriage will somehow erode the institution of marriage altogether. I don't know how much more MY life or MY personal relationships would change if gays were allowed to get married--I'd probably have a lot more weddings to attend, but that's about it.

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

LOL.

Well, the lives of others do impact ours either immediately or over time. Across societies, norms, values, and laws have changed over time and these societies have changed with them (as either the direct cause of the change or a correlate of the change). Whether the change is perceived as positive or negative, there is change.

When I say "get out of the way," I'm not implying that people have no vested interest in what happens in a larger sense and that what happens has no impact on anyone beyond the actual actors.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

. . . But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

ITA, plus Williams-Sonoma.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

Civil Unions can be had in Illinois beginning July 1. My family of divorce lawyers can't wait!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

LMAO. I asked once in my facebook status if anyone had ever bought their furniture and one of my friends responded "of course I have, I'm a gay man, duh."

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, because that's how you said it. You attempted to state definitively that "your book" says that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pretty sure you and I own the same Book. So, you aren't just making a statement about your own viewpoint, you are saying that it is there for all knowing eyes to see and accept.

I made a statement based on what I've read in the Bible. Maybe we read different versions of the Bible, because they are out there.

As a fellow Christian, and someone who loves different opinions because they make the world interesting, I would never say believing that homosexuality is a sin is automatically bigoted unless that means that people can't disapprove of anything without automatically being a bigot. All I'm saying is that you can use your religion and the book to support your perceptions without implying that you are upholding a universal Christian TRUTH that has not been the least bit influenced by human interpretations and societal norms and values. Or, you can keep implying that (as most of my family and friends do) but be open to others' responses to your expressed viewpoints. The world is your oyster.

And we all understand TRUTH differently. I'm expressing the TRUTH as I understand it. You may have a different spin on it. That is okay.

The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is not bigotry. People can think and feel whatever the hell they like. They can even express those opinions as long as they are as tolerant of people's responses to their viewpoints. The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is ensuring that groups are not excluded on the basis of such viewpoints. Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

I agree.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I made a statement based on what I've read in the Bible. Maybe we read different versions of the Bible, because they are out there.

LOL. You're going with that, eh?

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

And we all understand TRUTH differently. I'm expressing the TRUTH as I understand it. You may have a different spin on it. That is okay.

About time you acknowledged the bolded. And don't label my interpretation and understanding of Scripture as a "spin." Unless you consider yours a "spin" which is counter to everything you've stated (until you admitted it is your understanding of your readings).

And of course it is okay. I certainly didn't think I was headed to hell nor did I think you were headed to hell based on your different interpretation.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL. You're going with that, eh?



About time you acknowledged the bolded. And don't label my interpretation and understanding of Scripture as a "spin." Unless you consider yours a "spin" which is counter to everything you've stated (until you admitted it is your understanding of your readings).

And of course it is okay. I certainly didn't think I was headed to hell nor did I think you were headed to hell based on your different interpretation.

Now you seem to be getting defensive. So I will stop.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Now you seem to be getting defensive. So I will stop.

You could have stopped typing about this without attempting to put the onus on me. You know damn better than that.