Second Presidential Debate

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe we should go back to the days when only white male landowners were allowed to vote.

There are members of my family who are praying for the day.

ETA: All of the men I'm talking about are Republicans.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I was just respondong to what you reported your dentist said:


Yes, you've made clear that people have different reasons for supporting candidates, but of all the examples you have given of why someone might support Obama, I haven't seen any acknowledgement that some people might have good reasons for doing so -- just examples of silly reasons.


I agree. Isn't protecting our democracy, including our right to vote, part of what McCain served in the military to protect?

Maybe we should go back to the days when only white male landowners were allowed to vote.

My mistake, just tried to get a few thoughts down without blabbing on and on. It was not the 'be all' reason...in his opinion. Just for a large segment of our uneducated (not talking book education, talking not looking at issues) will vote for whichever candidate their friends/coworkers/family tell them too. And, that is on both sides.

While I have given silly reasons on both sides. I have also reiterated reasons that I have heard from others. When I find a good reason for voting for BO, I'll be sure to let you know!

Kidding aside, the voting thing. You totally overexaggerated my statement, and basically put me barefoot and pregnant 80 years ago. My concern is with what was reported at length again yesterday about the group ACORN, and a guy who was able to register his CAT to vote. I'm talking more about accountability. Why is that some states don't mandate voters to prove their identity? I read an article about German tourists registering to vote! There was a problem in my husband's south Texas hometown with DEAD people registering to vote! We are all given the right to vote, I'm upset that the states don't take more measures to make sure that everyone gets their ONE vote, and that they are in fact, eligible to vote. So, basically "ANYONE (a dead person, a non-resident) and their dog (or cat) is being allowed to vote."

Regardless, the whole 'register the day before' concept still has me raising my eyebrow. People are given so many opportunities to register throughout the years, why does it have to be in the 11th hour? Although, they are saying the BO supporters are the ones pushing it, in all honesty, if it were the McCain camp doing it, I would still have a problem. I'm sure there are exceptions to the last minute (just turning 18, etc), but seriously, what could happen LITERALLY the day beofre that you're like "Wow, there's an election tomorrow, I should probably register."

Finally, again, I'm not in that 250k+ set, but why should they have to pay so much more JUST BECAUSE they make more? Just becuase you CAN live on 13k a month doesn't mean you should have to simply because you make more. I get the whole different tax brackets thing, but I just don't think the gap should be widened. If the government would spend more effectively, there wouldn't even be a need to raise the taxes.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

When I find a good reason for voting for BO, I'll be sure to let you know!

I'll be waiting.

Kidding aside, the voting thing. You totally overexaggerated my statement, and basically put me barefoot and pregnant 80 years ago. My concern is with what was reported at length again yesterday about the group ACORN, and a guy who was able to register his CAT to vote. I'm talking more about accountability.

I don't think we overexaggerated what you said. I think we took you to mean what you said, which came across as broader than the legitimate concerns you're raising now.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

No, not really. I see far more than 20% of my paycheck deducted each month, and I don't make 250K. If you do make that much, it's more like 33%...so, that ends up being about $13K a month. For 6 people (4 kids!), that's not that much. Also, don't forget:

-insurance premiums/deductions
-pre-tax deductions for retirement
-state/local taxes
-Social Security
-any other pre-tax deductions (for example, I get one for public transportation)

Also, you have to factor in regional costs of living. What's "comfortable" in Michigan is "middle class" in NYC/SF, and "honking wealthy" in Mississippi.

You are correct that they have to subtract state/local taxes, Social Security and Medicare deductions, but we all pay those at the same rate and you don't pay Social Security or Medicare deductions after you've earned (I think this is the right number) $90,000K in one year.

When you figure your real income tax rate, you have to look at what you paid for the whole year per your tax return, after deducting your mortgage interest, charitable deductions, health care deductions, etc. Also, our tax rate is graduated. When people say "I'm in the 33% tax bracket", they aren't paying 33% on all their income. They're paying 10 % on the first 11,500, 15% on the next 20,000 or so, etc. They are only paying 33% on the amount above (again, shooting from memory here and could be wrong on exact figures) $125,000. So the average of all these different rates ends up being much lower 33%. I do understand that the cost of living in NYC and California is significantly higher than other places. Some of those costs do end up being deductions too, which should help balance it out (mortgage interest, for one)

But just about anywhere in this country, $250K is a pretty high income.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AGDee

You are correct that they have to subtract state/local taxes, Social Security and Medicare deductions, but we all pay those at the same rate and you don't pay Social Security or Medicare deductions after you've earned (I think this is the right number) $90,000K in one year.

When you figure your real income tax rate, you have to look at what you paid for the whole year per your tax return, after deducting your mortgage interest, charitable deductions, health care deductions, etc. Also, our tax rate is graduated. When people say "I'm in the 33% tax bracket", they aren't paying 33% on all their income. They're paying 10 % on the first 11,500, 15% on the next 20,000 or so, etc. They are only paying 33% on the amount above (again, shooting from memory here and could be wrong on exact figures) $125,000. So the average of all these different rates ends up being much lower 33%. I do understand that the cost of living in NYC and California is significantly higher than other places. Some of those costs do end up being deductions too, which should help balance it out (mortgage interest, for one)

But just about anywhere in this country, $250K is a pretty high income.

My whole point was that money goes much faster than you'd think, especially once you start making a considerable amount and a lot goes away in taxes and other deductions.

I also know how tax brackets work. Since I'm actually AT work now, I shouldn't get into the whole thing, lest I want to keep this job. I was simply responding to an uninformed, simplistic view of income deductions.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'll be waiting.

I don't think we overexaggerated what you said. I think we took you to mean what you said, which came across as broader than the legitimate concerns you're raising now.

It might be awhile...LOL!

Gotcha! It was kind of an afterthought, and I thought it was probaby discussed more in depth on another thread!

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

No, not really. I see far more than 20% of my paycheck deducted each month, and I don't make 250K. If you do make that much, it's more like 33%...so, that ends up being about $13K a month. For 6 people (4 kids!), that's not that much. Also, don't forget:

-insurance premiums/deductions
-pre-tax deductions for retirement
-state/local taxes
-Social Security
-any other pre-tax deductions (for example, I get one for public transportation)

Also, you have to factor in regional costs of living. What's "comfortable" in Michigan is "middle class" in NYC/SF, and "honking wealthy" in Mississippi.

If you take your $13,000 a month figure thats still a yearly income of $156,000 and would allow each member of the 6 person family $26,000 to live off of. In my mind cost of living is factored in automatically I live in Ct where the median cost of a home is $300,000 not as high as say orange county, Ca but still it's not cheap to live here. Granted i don't have children and i live with a family member so rent and utilities are not something in my current budget. But I live on max $100 a week for groceries gas and general spending and most weeks i don't spend all of that.

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

If you take your $13,000 a month figure thats still a yearly income of $156,000 and would allow each member of the 6 person family $26,000 to live off of. In my mind cost of living is factored in automatically I live in Ct where the median cost of a home is $300,000 not as high as say orange county, Ca but still it's not cheap to live here. Granted i don't have children and i live with a family member so rent and utilities are not something in my current budget. But I live on max $100 a week for groceries gas and general spending and most weeks i don't spend all of that.

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

I live in CT as well, and when you factor in mortgage, insurance, utility bills, taxes, healthcare (even with insurance, things like co-pays for visits and Rx), the odd home improvement (which, depending on the problem, could run you upwards of $10,000), heating for the winter (if needed, whether oil or wood), clothing, and a number of other factors, those numbers go up quite a bit.

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

But then again maybe my definition of comfortable is different than yours and thats where the problem lies.

DEFINITELY definitions different. For example, median home cost here is half of that in CT. Not to mention, my family of 5 (MIL lives with us) would NEVER be able to get by $100/week. (I went to the store yesterday and bought FOUR loaves of bread and 2 gallons of milk, which MIGHT get us through the weekend.)

While comfortable is certainly a debatable term, again, just because you CAN live off of a certain amount why should you HAVE to? There are certain things that I have no problem buying generic of, while others might not even look at the price of things. I cut coupons, not because I have to, but because I like to save money where I can. My cousin and her husband make slightly less than we do, but she is STRICTLY organic in her food choices. Obviously that costs more, but that is her 'necessity'.

It seems to be the progression, people who make more money tend to spend more money. If I was making 250k+ per year, then I would have wider opportunities for say a vehicle purchase. I don't HAVE to have a $700/month car payment (believe my, I'm happy that I have a $250 one!), but if the money's there why not!? I don't think anyone's whining that there just barely scrimping by on $13k/month, but if you're really working for it why should you have to give it back. Not to mention, if you're making more, you're most likely putting most of it back into the economy anyway, right? That was just an side thought...

nuff rambling!

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

DEFINITELY definitions different. For example, median home cost here is half of that in CT. Not to mention, my family of 5 (MIL lives with us) would NEVER be able to get by $100/week. (I went to the store yesterday and bought FOUR loaves of bread and 2 gallons of milk, which MIGHT get us through the weekend.)

While comfortable is certainly a debatable term, again, just because you CAN live off of a certain amount why should you HAVE to? There are certain things that I have no problem buying generic of, while others might not even look at the price of things. I cut coupons, not because I have to, but because I like to save money where I can. My cousin and her husband make slightly less than we do, but she is STRICTLY organic in her food choices. Obviously that costs more, but that is her 'necessity'.

It seems to be the progression, people who make more money tend to spend more money. If I was making 250k+ per year, then I would have wider opportunities for say a vehicle purchase. I don't HAVE to have a $700/month car payment (believe my, I'm happy that I have a $250 one!), but if the money's there why not!? I don't think anyone's whining that there just barely scrimping by on $13k/month, but if you're really working for it why should you have to give it back. Not to mention, if you're making more, you're most likely putting most of it back into the economy anyway, right? That was just an side thought...

nuff rambling!

That's where the arguments for a national sales tax instead of the income tax make sense. The FairTax plan has a "prebate", where you get a check for what the government has determined to be the tax an average family of your size in your area would pay on necessities (so you aren't paying taxes on things you need to get by), but after that the idea is that rich people spend more money and buy more expensive things, so they pay more sales tax. It is a progressive tax in that sense. It also helps with the fact that some of the richest people in the world have no real income and are just paying the capital gains rate on investments and no other income tax, so you can get at their money when they spend it.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Granted i don't have children and i live with a family member so rent and utilities are not something in my current budget. But I live on max $100 a week for groceries gas and general spending and most weeks i don't spend all of that.

Maybe im just lost because im only 21 and don't have a family or mortgage or those kinds of responsibilities but i just cant accept the fact that $13,000 is not enough money to live comfortably.

No one ever said it wasn't enough to live comfortably. It's just not as much as you think it is. Get back to us in a few years, once you've been on your own and seen what it takes.

[AOII Angel]

I don't want to have to cut coupons, spend a max of $100 a week on groceries. I'm not an elitist. I worked long and hard to get where I am. I lived off of $9000 a year...a YEAR for four years in medical school. Worked 120 hrs per week with 36 hr call every three nights as a surgery resident for the grand total of $35,000 for two years before moving to a more reasonable residency that only required 70 hrs a week with 30 hr call once or twice a week. I did this for 6 years while my student loans accrued interest that I couldn't pay since the payment is $1000 a month. From Kindergarten through residency, my education lasted 27 years! Add into that my husband's med school debt, my mortgage and you see a woman with a LOT of debt with a husband who makes a minimal salary as a fellow at Hopkins. No one will choose to go through what I did just to pay more than their fair share once they finally get to the point where they are paid appropriately for their level of education. I deserve to be comfortable, and I'm not going to be made to feel guilty that I make a good living.

[nittanyalum]

For anyone who missed the SNL special last night (it was on against Grey's so I'm sure lots of people missed it ) -- this is their take on the 2nd debate: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Li...e-open/742065/

(the link on the right for Seth & Amy's "Really?" segment on Update is worth a click too)

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I worked long and hard to get where I am. I lived off of $9000 a year...a YEAR for four years in medical school. Add into that my husband's med school debt, my mortgage and you see a woman with a LOT of debt with a husband who makes a minimal salary as a fellow at Hopkins. No one will choose to go through what I did just to pay more than their fair share once they finally get to the point where they are paid appropriately for their level of education. I deserve to be comfortable, and I'm not going to be made to feel guilty that I make a good living.

Exactly what I'm saying! I don't know if you're practicing now, but that's certainly not an easy job...pretty much 'on-call' 24/7. You busted your ass through school, why do you have to contribute more.

That's why I don't get why people are so upset that he's not going to tax the wealthy. It's not like everyone making 6 figures is stealing it from little-old-ladies coffee cans.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Exactly what I'm saying! I don't know if you're practicing now, but that's certainly not an easy job...pretty much 'on-call' 24/7. You busted your ass through school, why do you have to contribute more.

That's why I don't get why people are so upset that he's not going to tax the wealthy. It's not like everyone making 6 figures is stealing it from little-old-ladies coffee cans.

I am an Obama supporter, because taxes to me are not the most important issue in this election for me, but...I was so mad at Biden when he basically said that it was time for people who made over $250,000 to be patriotic and pay more taxes! What!??? I'm not patriotic paying the taxes that I already pay, caring for many poor, nonpaying patients in Prince George's County, MD? Yes, I'm currently in practice...only for 1 year, so I haven't had much time yet to enjoy my success!