Second Presidential Debate

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AGDee

While that may solidify McCain's conservative base, it's not going to swing people over from Obama to McCain. Here is another paragraph from the article:



See, some of us feel like Obama is FINALLY someone who can empathize with us and who FINALLY understands how we feel and sees the world from OUR point of view. That's why he feels like a breath of fresh air to us.

dang....please get out of my head.....LOL

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American....McCain can't say that...almos goes back to the argument...If you don't know how many houses you have...how can you be in touch with the man about to lose his ONE house?

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

dang....please get out of my head.....LOL

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American....McCain can't say that...almos goes back to the argument...If you don't know how many houses you have...how can you be in touch with the man about to lose his ONE house?

Ugh. I guess 'living' in a POW camp for 7 years isn't struggling. Poor baby, Obama, had to go to Harvard on financial aid. Maybe I'm just not seeing everything, but McCain has fought FOR EVERYONE both overseas and domestically. I see lots of arguments 'defending' Obam's positions on votes he's participated in (and most that he's abstained on http://www.opencongress.org/people/v...9_barack_obama all the way down to the debateability of his citizenship. I just don't get it. I live in NY (coming from TX, what a difference a liberal state makes), and I work in the financial services industry. I met with 3 separate clients last night, all professionals who are TERRIFIED if BO becomes president. Not everyone is clammoring for these 'changes' that Obama promises (although I believe it to be with fingers crossed behind his back!)

Look at the rest of the world right now. The US is starting to self-destruct itself with all the 'political correctedness' bullshit. While we're fumbling in the dark trying to get our shit together, do you think that Russia or even China aren't plotting to become the new super power.

I will be VERY surprised if (and I've said it before) Obama actually does something productive while in office, or doesn't send the entire population into a tailspin with all of his promises. I'm voting for McCain, because he also preaches that change is needed, but he doesn't propose doing it overnight, as is BO's MO. I think we need change too, but it needs to be gradual. It took us a LONG time to get to where things are now, the brakes just cannot effectively be slammed and 180ed. There is so much going on, that I prefer to have someone OLDER and more experienced helping to make those decisions. I really don't have the time to be chasing some young, wannabe all over the effing country trying to make sure I'll be okay...oh because he knows what it's like to struggle? I'm reading all the bios I can find, and I just don't see anything that really indicates a struggle.

I think it's great that everyone gets so involved in this election, because it is so important. I just get so worried about the rationale some people have for choosing Obama, as I'm sure that many of you have for us choosing McCain.

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Look at the rest of the world right now. The US is starting to self-destruct itself with all the 'political correctedness' bullshit. While we're fumbling in the dark trying to get our shit together, do you think that Russia or even China aren't plotting to become the new super power.

Political correctness is destroying the America?

[ajuhdg]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

Political correctness is destroying the America?

To an extent, yes. I think we've gotten so bogged down in making ALL the people happy ALL the time, that the reality of those battles is eating us up. It just seems like nothing can get done fully in this country without someone somewhere having hurt feelings.

I recently read a quote from 2003 from a Rep. Melvyn Watt "In 2003 Watt vehemently opposed efforts by the Bush Administration and Congressional Republicans to increase regulatory oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. "I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing" Uh, yeah, now NOBOBODY without a 800 credit score is going to be able to get a loan. It's like, 'God forbid we tighten the rules for a few people right now, to protect the economy and the rest of the people.' It just keeps happening that we always seem to have to help and maneuver to 'save' the people who screw up their own lives without rewarding the ones who work hard at keeping their stuff together.

I know that I sound mean, selfish, nasty, or whatever, but I'm so sick of working my ass off to pay for the mistakes of others. I'm not saying we should be communist or whatever, but does anyone else think that there is such a thing as TOO free? When does that freedom turn into entitlement?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Ugh. I guess 'living' in a POW camp for 7 years isn't struggling.

I'm guessing that when people talk about struggling in this context, they mean struggling to make a living. I'm also guessing that lots of voters think that someone who can't seem to remember how many houses he currently owns does not know what it's like for many American families today.

I have the utmost respect for John McCain for his military service and his time as a POW. (And it was 5+, not 7, years, but regardless.) I'm not sure though, that experience gives him particular insight into the everyday struggles of many Americans. And sometimes I tend to think it gives him a less than objective view of foreign policy.

I think it's great that everyone gets so involved in this election, because it is so important. I just get so worried about the rationale some people have for choosing Obama, as I'm sure that many of you have for us choosing McCain.

Very true, although just as you've qualified it by saying "some people have for choosing Obama," I'd qualify what you said about yourself by saying "some of us for choosing McCain." There are reasonable and unreasonable rationales for choosing either one.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

[AGDee]

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

LOL. Which is one reason I continue to say that choosing Sarah Palin as your running mate =/= "Country First."

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

Neither would I! But, we can't let ourselves get wrapped up in this image of Obama as the blue-collar savior, that because he only has one house that he's like the "average American." No, he's above average, just like John McCain.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

You do realize that at no point has he said "I don't want to tax the wealthy" don't you? Oh of course not, you just hear what you want to.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

You do realize that at no point has he said "I don't want to tax the wealthy" don't you? Oh of course not, you just hear what you want to.

McCain:

So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it be very clear to you I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child from $3,500 to $7,000."

He still never explained how reducing the tax burden would help people who have no kids.

And what would have to be done to increase the EIC? I don't see that as somehting that would happen over night and even still, I have an odd feeling that part of that increase has to do with the $5000 he 'promises' to give Americans to buy health care...at that point you will NEED the increased EIC to pay the premiums!

[ajuhdg]

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes?

I think that, perhaps, it's a question of how one defines "fair share." To some people, everyone paying their fair share means, for example, everyone paying X%. (Of course, even under this simple formula, those who make more are paying more in fact, even if they are paying the same proportionally.)

Others would disagree that this is the fairest way to assess taxes. Say X% = 20%. 20% of $30,000 takes a much bigger chunk out of what is needed to live on than, say, 20% of $300,000. Hence, tax brackets in a progressive tax system like we have now. Of course, all of that gets muddled once deductions, credits and the like all get mixed into the equation.

I think that one can have "classist" reasons for thinking that the wealthier should pay more, and I think that others can have, for want of a better word, "honest" reasons for thinking so. And I don't think anyone can seriously question that the current tax structure is a mess and needs overhauling. I'll admit, though, that I don't know the best (and fairest) way to fix it; I doubt, though, that there's on;y one "right" way.

[WarEagle07]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch