Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[AGDee]

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AGDee

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

Right. Most of the info on the RAINN link disputes honorgal's posts.

As for this quote from RAINN "rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime," that is an attempt to put the onus solely on the offenders and to remove aggregate (campus, societal) blame. We don't want offenders hiding behind the curtains while people have boring and pointless debates in which they throw out key words like "media" and "society". I have been in plenty of town hall/community meetings, campus meetings, and been a panelist on many panels where those key words were thrown around a lot but people didn't want to discuss what all of this stuff MEANS.

Speaking of MEANING, the above quote from RAINN does not mean cultural factors are not a strong correlate and have no influence on behavior and public perceptions. As with most factors, it is a correlate and not a cause. None of my posts stated or implied that it is a cause (if it was a cause, every man would be a sexist, misogynist "offender" and every woman would be a weak, submissive "victim").

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Right. Most of the info on the RAINN link disputes honorgal's posts.

As for this quote from RAINN "rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime," that is an attempt to put the onus solely on the offenders and to remove aggregate (campus, societal) blame. We don't want offenders hiding behind the curtains while people have boring and pointless debates in which they throw out key words like "media" and "society". I have been in plenty of town hall/community meetings, campus meetings, and been a panelist on many panels where those key words were thrown around a lot but people didn't want to discuss what all of this stuff MEANS.

Speaking of MEANING, the above quote from RAINN does not mean cultural factors are not a strong correlate and have no influence on behavior and public perceptions. As with most factors, it is a correlate and not a cause. None of my posts stated or implied that it is a cause (if it was a cause, every man would be a sexist, misogynist "offender" and every woman would be a weak, submissive "victim").

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?

Honorgal, have you ever worked on a Task Force of any sort? Do you not realize that reaching common ground and recommending policies/practices/laws requires an understanding of MEANING?

You have been going back and forth for pages because the MEANING of your posts is confusing to a couple of us. Imagine if you were a member of a Crime/Campus Safety Task Force and some people did not understand the points you were making. There can be no progress without first understanding MEANING.

BTW, since "false dichotomy" is the theme of this thread: You only have two categories (the bolded). Do you really only see two categories in all of this? Speaking of MEANING....

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Honorgal, have you ever worked on a Task Force of any sort? Do you not realize that reaching common ground and recommending policies/practices/laws requires an understanding of MEANING?

LOL! Not that it matters a jot, but yes, I have lots of experience in this realm. But this isn't a task force, it is an internet discussion board, where we are expressing our opinions.

You have been going back and forth for pages because the MEANING of your posts is confusing to a couple of us. Imagine if you were a member of a Crime/Campus Safety Task Force and some people did not understand the points you were making. There can be no progress without first understanding MEANING.

BTW, since "false dichotomy" is the theme of this thread: You only have two categories (the bolded). Do you really only see two categories in all of this? Speaking of MEANING....

I'm sorry you are confused. Maybe you should spend more time reading what I've said instead of trying to misquote me.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

LOL! Not that it matters a jot, but yes, I have lots of experience in this realm. But this isn't a task force, it is an internet discussion board, where we are expressing our opinions.

point --------------------------------------------------------------- you

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'm sorry you are confused. Maybe you should spend more time reading what I've said instead of trying to misquote me.

Here I go again having to remind you of your own words:

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?

Are those the only two categories that you acknowledge?

[honorgal]

Are those the only two categories that you acknowledge?

Only two categories of what? If your point is that there are also sometimes male victims and female perps, yes, of course there are.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

. Which is why I think rape should be treated as the serious felony that it is, which calls for a vigorous criminal justice response. Otherwise, were just passing the bad guys off to another jurisdiction.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

Because the statistics have a quantitative quality, whereas the other represents strategies to deal with the problem and those are obviously more subjective.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

One of the Lisak and Miler papers talks about those 3-7% knowing that they won't face consequences, and that's a factor in their calculation when the decide to continue raping. So, it would be logical to consider whether the prospect of getting kicked out of college is enough of a deterrent to prevent rape. The research on motivation is nascient, but from what I've read, the rapists are making a pretty cold calculation.