Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Data collection:
That is aggregated versus reporting separate for each college and university campus across population size, type (co-ed or women's college or men's college; private or public; etc.).

Aggregating across millions of people ages 18-23 (those more likely to live on campus or nearby rather than commute) does not make the data shocking or impossible to believe.

And, yes, as a microcosm of larger society college campuses and areas around college campuses are more dangerous and have the higher rates of incidents and 911 calls. Researchers and law enforcement discovered this generations ago. That is also why many people do not want to live around a college campus--including noise, drinking, reduced safety, and students short-term renting rather than forming safe and stable neighborhoods and communities. Just as college campuses have higher rates of STDs, drug use, and alcohol use. That is what happens when you take a collective of people and put them in a bubble. This is at the aggregate level. There is variance at the micro-level and looking at specific schools and across various school types.




Stranger rape is so low for the same reason most victimization is done by family, friends, acquaintances. Based on comfort level and greater levels of interaction, you are more likely to be victimized by a non-stranger. Stranger victimization is less common and has lower rates in crime data even without "stranger danger warnings".

There are campuses that tell women and men what I said in the above paragraph. Victimization by family, friends, and acquaintances is impossible to prevent 100% but the incidents are reduced by telling people about proper ways to deal with anger, aggression, power struggles, sexual aggression, and seeing warning signs, having the resources to get away from a situation, having the strength to tell someone "no", and being able to accept when someone tells (general) you "no".

It is the same method used for domestic violence between partners or family and friends. And it is not alway effective. It increases in effectiveness when people do NOT believe that women and men have huge biological and gender differences that result in women being weak and submissive and men being strong, dominant, Penis Warriors. People can't believe that nonsense and then act shocked by the negative outcomes of perpetuating that culture. Telling women to be safe means NOTHING without also telling men to be safe. Letting men think they can do whatever they choose because they are biologically and patriarchally wired as such, negates every attempt at safety and equality. You can't tell someone "you're the MAN" in one breath and say "oh...dial it down a notch...for the sake of safety" in the next breath. Same thing applies to socializing women to believe they are biologically and socially weaker and submissive but then screaming "GIRL POWER...take ownership of your body and safety" like it is an easy transition.

Is anyone on this thread, or in the media arguing that there are huge biological and gender differences that result in women being weak and submissive and men being strong and dominant as a factor in the manufactured campus rape "crisis"? I'm not seeing it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Is anyone on this thread

I don't know what your biology and gender posts were about.

Originally Posted by honorgal

or in the media

Yes, there are people in the media and in every patriarchal society who use biology and gender to perpetuate rape culture. It is a very common theme, culture, and mode of socialization in this country and around the world. Since you are unaware of that, you should research that to truly understand this thread topic and challenge your unfounded belief that this is all manufactured.

I hope the data part of my post helped you understand the data so you can lay your non-researched and unfounded argument to rest.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

There are numerous layers of this subject that are of interest to me, but my main points are that the crisis meme is:

1. Manufactured
2. Dangerous - as a response to the manufactured crisis, colleges and universities are throwing due process out the window
3. Disingenuous - if 1 in 5 (or 4) was anywhere close to an accurate statistic, common sense would dictate a primary and robust emphasis on prevention. Instead, the activists pushing the crisis meme seem more interested in the "process" of victim support and perp discipline.

Thanks. I share your concern on whether universities are really able to effectively deal with this problem, however big it is or isn't, through the disciplinary process, and whether that process is fair to all concerned.

Originally Posted by honorgal

Is anyone on this thread, or in the media arguing that there are huge biological and gender differences that result in women being weak and submissive and men being strong and dominant as a factor in the manufactured campus rape "crisis"? I'm not seeing it.

That's why your post on "what you call gender differences I call biology" was questioned. It seemed to some of us, at least, that you were arguing that. Sorry if that was an erroneous inference, but that's what I was getting from your posts.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes, there are people in the media and in every patriarchal society who use biology and gender to perpetuate rape culture. .

Moving the goal posts, I see. Your statement I was referencing was that people believe men and women have huge biological and gender differences.

Why the compulsive need to exaggerate?

I will follow the experts when it comes to "rape culture", rather than the misguided, manipulated and those doing the manipulating.

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.
While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.
By the time they reach college, most students have been exposed to 18 years of prevention messages, in one form or another. Thanks to repeated messages from parents, religious leaders, teachers, coaches, the media and, yes, the culture at large, the overwhelming majority of these young adults have learned right from wrong, and enter college knowing that rape falls squarely in the latter category.
Research supports the view that to focus solely on certain social groups or “types” of students in the effort to end campus sexual violence is a mistake. Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes.iii Other studies suggest that between 3-7% of college men have committed an act of sexual violence or would consider doing so. It is this relatively small percentage of the population, which has proven itself immune to years of prevention messages, that we must address in other ways. (Unfortunately, we are not aware of reliable research on female college perpetrators.)

More here:

http://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-T...mendations.pdf

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That's why your post on "what you call gender differences I call biology" was questioned. It seemed to some of us, at least, that you were arguing that. Sorry if that was an erroneous inference, but that's what I was getting from your posts.

Honorgal refused or was unable to clarify and just went on and on:

Originally Posted by honorgal

Men and women are having lots of boozy sex with each other on college campuses. This should be a good thing in the eyes of the campus feminists. And the men certainly aren't complaining. But some of the women are. Not only are they complaining, they are insisting that men have to change, become more chivalrous, treat women with the respect they deserve. It's almost comical. Almost. But keep telling us that we're pretty much the same.

Therefore I conclude that is what honorgal meant and is backpedaling because my posts highlight the ridiculousness of the assertion.

Other than that, I already said women and men should be free to do whatever they please and do it safely without fear of being accused of victimizing someone if instead it was miscommunication, both people were drunk, etc. That doesn't mean the MAJORITY of rape and sexual assault allegations are false.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Moving the goal posts, I see. Your statement I was referencing was that people believe men and women have huge biological and gender differences.

I responded to this:

Originally Posted by honorgal

Is anyone on this thread, or in the media arguing that there are huge biological and gender differences that result in women being weak and submissive and men being strong and dominant as a factor in the manufactured campus rape "crisis"? I'm not seeing it.

If you are NOW only asking about the biological and gender differences (the bolded but not underlined part), do you not remember saying this all boils down to "gender differences. Also known as biology"?

Originally Posted by honorgal

More here:

http://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-T...mendations.pdf

Did you read the information in this link?

[AGDee]

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by The RAINN Report quoted by honorgal

While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime. . . .

This seems like a false dichotomy to me. Without a doubt rape is caused by conscious decisions, but those conscious decisions, like all conscious decisions, are often shaped, at least in part, by cultural factors.

By the time they reach college, most students have been exposed to 18 years of prevention messages, in one form or another. Thanks to repeated messages from parents, religious leaders, teachers, coaches, the media and, yes, the culture at large, the overwhelming majority of these young adults have learned right from wrong, and enter college knowing that rape falls squarely in the latter category.

An oversimplification and overgeneralization, it seems to me. Yes, the culture at large says rape is wrong, but the culture at large isn't the only culture at play. Coaches, for example, may say one thing, but what does the athletic peer culture say? And which culture wins?

The Duke lacrosse case comes to mind. False accusations, but false accusations dropped down in a context where they were all too easy to believe, at least until the accusations started to unravel, because of the culture of the lacrosse team. I have no doubt that those guys had 18+ years of being taught right from wrong, and yet some of them thought it was okay to call in strippers for a party and to make sexually suggestive statements to them.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I responded to this:



If you are NOW only asking about the biological and gender differences, do you not remember saying this all boils down to "gender differences. Also known as biology"?

Of course I don't remember saying that because I didn't say it. But you sure do love to misquote people.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

This seems like a false dichotomy to me. Without a doubt rape is caused by conscious decisions, but those conscious decisions, like all conscious decisions, are often shaped, at least in part, by cultural factors.

An oversimplification and overgeneralization, it seems to me. Yes, the culture at large says rape is wrong, but the culture at large isn't the only culture at play. Coaches, for example, may say one thing, but what does the athletic peer culture say? And which culture wins?

The Duke lacrosse case comes to mind. False accusations, but false accusations dropped down in a context where they were all too easy to believe, at least until the accusations started to unravel, because of the culture of the lacrosse team. I have no doubt that those guys had 18+ years of being taught right from wrong, and yet some of them thought it was okay to call in strippers for a party and to make sexually suggestive statements to them.

And the message of "rape culture" isn't an oversimplification and over generalization?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AGDee

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

Right. Most of the info on the RAINN link disputes honorgal's posts.

As for this quote from RAINN "rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime," that is an attempt to put the onus solely on the offenders and to remove aggregate (campus, societal) blame. We don't want offenders hiding behind the curtains while people have boring and pointless debates in which they throw out key words like "media" and "society". I have been in plenty of town hall/community meetings, campus meetings, and been a panelist on many panels where those key words were thrown around a lot but people didn't want to discuss what all of this stuff MEANS.

Speaking of MEANING, the above quote from RAINN does not mean cultural factors are not a strong correlate and have no influence on behavior and public perceptions. As with most factors, it is a correlate and not a cause. None of my posts stated or implied that it is a cause (if it was a cause, every man would be a sexist, misogynist "offender" and every woman would be a weak, submissive "victim").

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

. Which is why I think rape should be treated as the serious felony that it is, which calls for a vigorous criminal justice response. Otherwise, were just passing the bad guys off to another jurisdiction.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

Because the statistics have a quantitative quality, whereas the other represents strategies to deal with the problem and those are obviously more subjective.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

What you call gender inequality, I call gender differences. It's also known as biology.

Okay, honorgal.

Back to your interpretation of data and campus safety, do you now understand the data and overall safety of college campuses? Does that help you to understand the data and this topic?

Speaking of campus safety, there are non-students who (live not too far from and therefore) target college campuses for robbery, burglary, and violence? Why? Because they know that despite every effort from campus police and public safety, college students (and some staff and faculty) are careless, shortsighted, and trusting. Can that factor into sexual assault and rape, that depends on the circumstances.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

For me, those statistics just prove that college campuses should not be the ones managing this issue. All a college can do is kick that student off campus. That doesn't protect other women from the monster who has raped. It only protects the women on that campus. So the man is sent on his way to somewhere else to continue his behavior. That 3-7% responsible will still be doing it, just not on that campus. That is no solution.

RAINN is also one of the groups who publish the 1 in 5 statistic. If you challenge their credibility on those stats, then why would anything else on their site be reliable?

One of the Lisak and Miler papers talks about those 3-7% knowing that they won't face consequences, and that's a factor in their calculation when the decide to continue raping. So, it would be logical to consider whether the prospect of getting kicked out of college is enough of a deterrent to prevent rape. The research on motivation is nascient, but from what I've read, the rapists are making a pretty cold calculation.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Right. Most of the info on the RAINN link disputes honorgal's posts.

As for this quote from RAINN "rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime," that is an attempt to put the onus solely on the offenders and to remove aggregate (campus, societal) blame. We don't want offenders hiding behind the curtains while people have boring and pointless debates in which they throw out key words like "media" and "society". I have been in plenty of town hall/community meetings, campus meetings, and been a panelist on many panels where those key words were thrown around a lot but people didn't want to discuss what all of this stuff MEANS.

Speaking of MEANING, the above quote from RAINN does not mean cultural factors are not a strong correlate and have no influence on behavior and public perceptions. As with most factors, it is a correlate and not a cause. None of my posts stated or implied that it is a cause (if it was a cause, every man would be a sexist, misogynist "offender" and every woman would be a weak, submissive "victim").

I'd rather discuss effective ways to prevent college women from becoming victims and college men from being falsely accused of being rapists. You would rather discuss what all this stuff MEANS?