Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Do you routinely do it, or is it a one time thing?

Hello, false dichotomy!

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Hello, false dichotomy!

LOL, yes well, I guess there's the possibility he's done it a few times. No one else here seems the slightest bit shocked by it, so I'm guessing it's not a one time thing. Really bad form in the message board world I've been in. YMMV.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Do you do this a lot, Dr. Phil? I'm asking because if the answer is yes. I'd rather not waste my time on a message board that would allow it. It's rude and extremely childish.

People who post things like this:

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh goody, you passed Gender Studies 101 with flying colors.

have ceded the high ground and are not in a particularly good position for calling others out on rude and childish behavior.

You've raised some valid points, some of which many posters—including Dr. Phil (who is a she, btw)—appear to agree with. Unfortunately, your valid points are getting lost in the overly-combative, ax-grinding tone of your posts.

[DrPhil]

Speaking of irony and hypocrisy.

Anyway, Gender Studies 101 rocks and honorgal needs tutorials

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

People who post things like this:have ceded the high ground and are not in a particularly good position for calling others out on rude and childish behavior.

You've raised some valid points, some of which many posters—including Dr. Phil (who is a she, btw)—appear to agree with. Unfortunately, your valid points are getting lost in the overly-combative, ax-grinding tone of your posts.

Oh please. I've gone back and read the thread. If you did the same you'd see that I was simply responding to Dr. Phil's combativeness.

As for ax grinding, i do have strong opinions on this particular subject, from several different angles. Is that not encouraged?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Oh please. I've gone back and read the thread. If you did the same you'd see that I was simply responding to Dr. Phil's combativeness.

I too have gone back and read the thread, and the idea that you were simply responding to her combativeness is bull. She said she agreed with much of what you said, but then disagreed with one specific statement you made—that what she called gender inequalities you call biology. You responded:

Originally Posted by honorgal

The irony and hypocrisy of this faux rape crisis are entirely lost on you, I see. It would almost be funny if it didn't involve the actual well being of real young people.

She then asked questions to see if you understood why she disagreed with you, and it was you who got combative.

As for ax grinding, i do have strong opinions on this particular subject, from several different angles. Is that not encouraged?

Of course strong opinions are encouraged. Defending your strong opinions primarily with ad hominem arguments and dismissiveness, however, is not. Back up your strong opinions with good, objective arguments, not simply by writing off those who disagree with you, in whole or only in part, as "the hysteria crowd" or by telling them irony is lost on them. That's not the way to get anyone to take your arguments seriously.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I too have gone back and read the thread, and the idea that you were simply responding to her combativeness is bull. She said she agreed with much of what you said, but then disagreed with one specific statement you made—that what she called gender inequalities you call biology. You responded: She then asked questions to see if you understood why she disagreed with you, and it was you who got combative.

Of course strong opinions are encouraged. Defending your strong opinions primarily with ad hominem arguments and dismissiveness, however, is not. Back up your strong opinions with good, objective arguments, not simply by writing off those who disagree with you, in whole or only in part, as "the hysteria crowd" or by telling them irony is lost on them. That's not the way to get anyone to take your arguments seriously.

I have added plenty of facts, including the DOJ statistics, to back up my arguments. Again, I felt like I was simply matching my tone to hers. Until we got to the part where she fake quoted me. I welcome the give and take of argument and exchange of ideas but that is a huge red flag to me, either about her or about a community that allows (encourages?) it. I'm obviously new to posting here, so that's why I am trying to get a sense if it's just a random thing, or it happens a lot. Again, because I wouldn't want to waste my time. That's not a flounce. I don't know y'all, you don't know me. No one here will care if I ever post again, nor should they.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I have added plenty of facts, including the DOJ statistics, to back up my arguments.

Yes, you have cited some things like the USDOJ statistics, though I'm not sure I'd go so far as "plenty." I'm just saying that the facts you've posted are getting lost in the overall tone, to the point where it's not completely clear what your argument is, other than that the "hysteria crowd" has run amok.

[DrPhil]

Coincidentally, I had a mimosa brunch with a friend and we always have good discussions. He initiated a good conversation about his "girlfriend" moving to a different state and pressuring him to get married. He said so many problems are a result of women and men being so darn hormonally and socially different. He was talking about relationships, in general, and said women and men express anger and hurt differently. He was oversimplifying the topic and doing the "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" argument. I asked him how larger gender disparities and other larger issues will be addressed if people keep insisting this all boils down to "differences". *mimosa sip*

I'm not sure of honorgal's argument but there are people who believe men are unfairly targeted and blamed for things that are merely a result of biological and gender differences.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Yes, you have cited some things like the USDOJ statistics, though I'm not sure I'd go so far as "plenty." I'm just saying that the facts you've posted are getting lost in the overall tone, to the point where it's not completely clear what your argument is, other than that the "hysteria crowd" has run amok.

There are numerous layers of this subject that are of interest to me, but my main points are that the crisis meme is:

1. Manufactured
2. Dangerous - as a response to the manufactured crisis, colleges and universities are throwing due process out the window
3. Disingenuous - if 1 in 5 (or 4) was anywhere close to an accurate statistic, common sense would dictate a primary and robust emphasis on prevention. Instead, the activists pushing the crisis meme seem more interested in the "process" of victim support and perp discipline.

[AGDee]

If those statistics are wrong, what are the real ones?

I've read statistics that said 1 in 5 women are raped in their lifetime. In the circle of friends I know well enough to share such information, that statistic seems pretty accurate, if not a little low.

There is a primary and robust emphasis on prevention on a lot of campuses. I don't know what world you live in, but every campus tour we went on emphasized escort services and told young women not to walk alone at night. Columbia/Barnard freshman orientation includes a session about rape, including date rape. I believe it was Lambda Chi Alpha who had a program they did on campuses about date rape at least a decade or more ago. Take Back the Night rallies are held on every campus I know of. You don't think that's a primary and robust emphasis on prevention?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

If those statistics are wrong, what are the real ones?

I've read statistics that said 1 in 5 women are raped in their lifetime. In the circle of friends I know well enough to share such information, that statistic seems pretty accurate, if not a little low.

I posted information earlier in this thread, including a link to the latest DOJ crime stats. And the observation that a 1 in 5 number would mean that our college campuses are more dangerous than our most dangerous inner cities.

There is a primary and robust emphasis on prevention on a lot of campuses. I don't know what world you live in, but every campus tour we went on emphasized escort services and told young women not to walk alone at night. Columbia/Barnard freshman orientation includes a session about rape, including date rape. I believe it was Lambda Chi Alpha who had a program they did on campuses about date rape at least a decade or more ago. Take Back the Night rallies are held on every campus I know of. You don't think that's a primary and robust emphasis on prevention?

As you note, college women are given specific strategies for preventing stranger rape, such as not walking alone at night. The incident of stranger rape is quite low.
What, specifically, are the preventive strategies women are being given for avoiding date/aquaintance rape, which account for the vast majority of "crisis"?

[AGDee]

What is a woman able to do if her date decides to rape her? Nothing. There is nothing she can do because she is overpowered. Why would the victim be responsible for preventing it? The men need to stop raping. There need to be severe consequences when they do rape. Rape culture needs to go away because it prevents women from reporting the rapes because of how they are scrutinized. What they were wearing doesn't matter. Whether they have had sex with 1000 other men doesn't matter. Whether they've had sex with that particular man before doesn't matter. If she says "No", it is "NO" and if a man continues then he is raping her. Even if she initially consents but then, before it happens, she changes her mind, he is raping her. If she is too intoxicated to legally consent, then he is raping her.

[MaryPoppins]

Originally Posted by AGDee

What is a woman able to do if her date decides to rape her? Nothing. There is nothing she can do because she is overpowered. Why would the victim be responsible for preventing it? The men need to stop raping. There need to be severe consequences when they do rape. Rape culture needs to go away because it prevents women from reporting the rapes because of how they are scrutinized. What they were wearing doesn't matter. Whether they have had sex with 1000 other men doesn't matter. Whether they've had sex with that particular man before doesn't matter. If she says "No", it is "NO" and if a man continues then he is raping her. Even if she initially consents but then, before it happens, she changes her mind, he is raping her. If she is too intoxicated to legally consent, then he is raping her.

Amen.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I posted information earlier in this thread, including a link to the latest DOJ crime stats. And the observation that a 1 in 5 number would mean that our college campuses are more dangerous than our most dangerous inner cities.

Data collection:
That is aggregated versus reporting separate for each college and university campus across population size, type (co-ed or women's college or men's college; private or public; etc.).

Aggregating across millions of people ages 18-23 (those more likely to live on campus or nearby rather than commute) does not make the data shocking or impossible to believe.

And, yes, as a microcosm of larger society college campuses and areas around college campuses are more dangerous and have the higher rates of incidents and 911 calls. Researchers and law enforcement discovered this generations ago. That is also why many people do not want to live around a college campus--including noise, drinking, reduced safety, and students short-term renting rather than forming safe and stable neighborhoods and communities. Just as college campuses have higher rates of STDs, drug use, and alcohol use. That is what happens when you take a collective of people and put them in a bubble. This is at the aggregate level. There is variance at the micro-level and looking at specific schools and across various school types.

Originally Posted by honorgal

As you note, college women are given specific strategies for preventing stranger rape, such as not walking alone at night. The incident of stranger rape is quite low.
What, specifically, are the preventive strategies women are being given for avoiding date/aquaintance rape, which account for the vast majority of "crisis"?

Stranger rape is so low for the same reason most victimization is done by family, friends, acquaintances. Based on comfort level and greater levels of interaction, you are more likely to be victimized by a non-stranger. Stranger victimization is less common and has lower rates in crime data even without "stranger danger warnings".

There are campuses that tell women and men what I said in the above paragraph. Victimization by family, friends, and acquaintances is impossible to prevent 100% but the incidents are reduced by telling people about proper ways to deal with anger, aggression, power struggles, sexual aggression, and seeing warning signs, having the resources to get away from a situation, having the strength to tell someone "no", and being able to accept when someone tells (general) you "no".

It is the same method used for domestic violence between partners or family and friends. And it is not alway effective. It increases in effectiveness when people do NOT believe that women and men have huge biological and gender differences that result in women being weak and submissive and men being strong, dominant, Penis Warriors. People can't believe that nonsense and then act shocked by the negative outcomes of perpetuating that culture. Telling women to be safe means NOTHING without also telling men to be safe. Letting men think they can do whatever they choose because they are biologically and patriarchally wired as such, negates every attempt at safety and equality. You can't tell someone "you're the MAN" in one breath and say "oh...dial it down a notch...for the sake of safety" in the next breath. Same thing applies to socializing women to believe they are biologically and socially weaker and submissive but then screaming "GIRL POWER...take ownership of your body and safety" like it is an easy transition.