Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Dr. Phil, the President and Vice President of the United States (among others) have declared it a crisis, citing the 1 in 5 statistic. It's been all over the news being declared a crisis. What in the heck are you babbling on about here?

Is there more than one person typing under the "honorgal" username?

Do you not remember this whole debate stemming from YOU claiming the 1 in 5 statistic is incorrect? Do you not remember constantly claiming this is all exaggerated and there isn't really a "crisis"?

Speaking of babbling, remember your own words and stop running in circles.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

The only person I've seen use the word crisis here at all is honorgal. Although, a single rape is a crisis to the person who has been subject to it.

I haven't singled out anyone here for using the word. Activists and news media and politicians are using it extensively, as a justification for policies that are doing more harm than good. (ie, college administrators using procedures that violate the due process rights of the accused in situations where the objective facts are unknowable.)

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Is there more than one person typing under the "honorgal" username?

Do you not remember this whole debate stemming from YOU claiming the 1 in 5 statistic is incorrect? Do you not remember constantly claiming this is all exaggerated and there isn't really a "crisis"?

Speaking of babbling, remember your own words and stop running in circles.

I'm not running in circles, but I'm beginning to think that you are.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Of course I don't remember saying that because I didn't say it. But you sure do love to misquote people.

You said:

Originally Posted by honorgal

Time to use some common sense. What you call gender inequality, I call gender differences. It's also known as biology.

Questions were asked to try to get at exactly what you meant here, but rather than engaging those questions, you dismissed them.

Originally Posted by honorgal

And the message of "rape culture" isn't an oversimplification and over generalization?

That's a defense? If it's a problem when those with whom you disagree overgeneralize and oversimplify, why is it okay when done by those you're citing for support.

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'm sorry you are confused. Maybe you should spend more time reading what I've said instead of trying to misquote me.

Or perhaps you should consider the possibility that you're not expressing yourself nearly as clearly as you may think you are. Beyond the repeated assertion that the "rape crisis" has been manufactured by "the hysteria crowd," I'm having real trouble trying to understand exactly what points you're trying to make.

Originally Posted by honorgal

My husband has worked in higher ed on a college campus for 25 years. My 3 kids basically grew up on the campus. I'm very familiar with the culture.

By chance has your husband, or any of his colleagues, gotten caught up in any controversy about how a rape or sexual assault was handled on campus? Or do you perhaps know a young man who was accused?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I haven't singled out anyone here for using the word. Activists and news media and politicians are using it extensively, as a justification for policies that are doing more harm than good. (ie, college administrators using procedures that violate the due process rights of the accused in situations where the objective facts are unknowable.)

Oh good grief, you came here to dispute the data and the use of "crisis". So, tell us WHAT does "crisis" mean (as far as honorgal is concerned) and WHO gets to determine if/when it is a "crisis" (as far as honorgal is concerned)?

It is difficult to get support for programs and initiatives when people feel the need to say (based on minimal research and minimal evidence) "the data is exaggerated...it's a problem but it isn't THAT big of a problem."

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Or do you perhaps know a young man who was accused?

I know young men who were falsely accused (as supported by evidence) but that doesn't make me think this is all exaggerated.

[AGDee]

Is due process required outside of the legal system? It isn't with employment. It isn't in public K-12 school systems.

I maintain my stance that college administrators are in way over their heads if they are supposed to deal with rape cases.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You said:
Questions were asked to try to get at exactly what you meant here, but rather than engaging those questions, you dismissed them.

That's a defense? If it's a problem when those with whom you disagree overgeneralize and oversimplify, why is it okay when done by those you're citing for support.

Or perhaps you should consider the possibility that you're not expressing yourself nearly as clearly as you may think you are. Beyond the repeated assertion that the "rape crisis" has been manufactured by "the hysteria crowd," I'm having real trouble trying to understand exactly what points you're trying to make.

I don't know how many more times I can say it. We have a problem with rape on college campuses but it's not a crisis. The extent and nature of the problem is being exaggerated. The preferred "solutions" being called for by those who are erroneously exaggerating the problem into a crisis aren't going to do much good and are going to do a lot of harm. Therefore, I oppose the solutions being called for, and because I think the objective truth matters, I also oppose the use of exaggeration as a way to compel action.

By chance has your husband, or any of his colleagues, gotten caught up in any controversy about how a rape or sexual assault was handled on campus? Or do you perhaps know a young man who was accused?

No. And no. I do know some young women and not so young women who have had drunken sex that they can't remember

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Is due process required outside of the legal system? It isn't with employment. It isn't in public K-12 school systems.

I think there could be situations where they are not required. But they would be for situations that aren't as serious as a rape allegation. Rape is a horrible crime. And as far as I can see, our culture rightly views rapists as the scum of the earth. Being falsely branded as a rapist would be a horrifying experience.

I maintain my stance that college administrators are in way over their heads if they are supposed to deal with rape cases.

I totally agree. The main point I've been making.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I don't know how many more times I can say it. We have a problem with rape on college campuses but it's not a crisis. The extent and nature of the problem is being exaggerated. The preferred "solutions" being called for by those who are erroneously exaggerating the problem into a crisis aren't going to do much good and are going to do a lot of harm. Therefore, I oppose the solutions being called for, and because I think the objective truth matters, I also oppose the use of exaggeration as a way to compel action.

Yet you were unable to respond to my posts about data and what constitutes "crisis." There is no "objective truth".

You claim your main point is college administrators are in way over their heads for dealing with rape cases but I don't think that's your main point. That is your sub-point but definitely not your main point. This thread would not have turned as it did if that was your main point.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yet you were unable to respond to my posts about data and what constitutes "crisis." There is no "objective truth".

You claim your main point is college administrators are in way over their heads for dealing with rape cases but I don't think that's your main point. That is your sub-point but definitely not your main point. This thread would not have turned as it did if that was your main point.

At least you are consistent in telling people that you know their opinions better than they do. Did they teach you that in Taskforce 101?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I don't know how many more times I can say it. We have a problem with rape on college campuses but it's not a crisis. The extent and nature of the problem is being exaggerated. The preferred "solutions" being called for by those who are erroneously exaggerating the problem into a crisis aren't going to do much good and are going to do a lot of harm. Therefore, I oppose the solutions being called for, and because I think the objective truth matters, I also oppose the use of exaggeration as a way to compel action.

Thanks. That point is coming through. It's when you go beyond that that I, at least, am having trouble figuring out exactly what you mean. I still, for example, haven't figured out what point you were trying to make about gender differences and biology.

Originally Posted by AGDee

Is due process required outside of the legal system? It isn't with employment. It isn't in public K-12 school systems.

It can be required in the public K-12 school system. Generally speaking, due process is required when the government, which includes public institutions like school systems and universities, seeks to deprive anyone of a liberty or property interest.

The thing is due process is not a monolithic, one size fits all thing. Whether due process is required can vary by situation and context, and can turn on what liberty or property is at stake (assuming one is). What process due process actually requires can also vary by situation and context.

[DrPhil]

Has this already been posted?

White House issues guidelines to colleges to combat rape

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Is due process required outside of the legal system? It isn't with employment. It isn't in public K-12 school systems.

I maintain my stance that college administrators are in way over their heads if they are supposed to deal with rape cases.

Whether or not college administrators should be doling out punishments (which I personally believe they should), they have to deal with things like reassigning student housing or allowing late drops to classes or things like that. There's no way they can stay out of it entirely.

[AGDee]

I should rephrase- they should not be the ones determining whether someone is guilty of a crime and being the only entity doling out punishments. I agree they have to deal with the repercussions.

[ASTalumna06]

It's stories like this that make women hesitant to report a rape:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n115216