How to stop hazing in my fraternity?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by dnall

I was asked my personal opinion on the theoretical case of an org having either lost its way or never having had such a broad meaningful mission in the first place. And I said, they should get back to their roots &/or remake themselves with such a purpose for being, or they should cease to exist. I don't want anyone to dissolve. I want them to find that change the world mission and focus the existence of their org on that.

What you were asked wasn't exactly theoretical:

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think you can say that overall, as there are many religious or ethnic groups out there who part of their purpose, if not their primary purpose, for being founded was that they were denied membership in other groups. You can't really blame them for "losing their purpose" when society has moved forward and (hopefully/theoretically) made their purpose moot.

Anybody familiar with Greek life can quickly identify a number of specific fraternities and sororities that would fit this description, so it should come as no surprise that you would be interpreted as commenting on those fraternities and sororities when you said:

Originally Posted by dnall

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

Meanwhile, your constant focus on a "change the world purpose" prompts me to ask again:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

So only "serious change the world" missions are valid or worthwhile missions? Anything else is short-sighted? My org certainly has what I would call a "serious change the world" mission, but I can't imagine ever suggesting that other orgs with different kinds of missions (like, say, change/grow the person) aren't equally worthwhile or valuable.

My confusion here is because the only way I can see anyone being angry with what I said is if they thought their own org didn't have a real reason for being and had in fact become little more than a social club.

Then I'm afraid you are indeed confused. Whether you intend to be judgmental or not, that's how it's coming across, and that's what we're trying to tell you.

BTW, being challenged on something you've said =/= angry challenger.

[dnall]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

What you were asked wasn't exactly theoretical:... Anybody familiar with Greek life can quickly identify a number of specific fraternities and sororities that would fit this description, so it should come as no surprise that you would be interpreted as commenting on those fraternities and sororities when you said:

I could not readily identify any such orgs. And I'll tell you why. Cause I don't see behind their closed doors and I don't know if one chapter is the exception or the rule. I prefer to give other orgs the benefit of the doubt. It is frustrating for me when I see orgs give a different impression than that, particularly when they're chapters of my own fraternity, but I don't interpret that to mean their whole org has somehow become meaningless.

The question seemed to me to refer to NPHC groups or sororities. I tried to avoid that specifically to avoid offending anyone, but since you press the point... Similar to what I said about SigNu above, I don't want to believe race or gender is or ever was the basis of any of those organizations. I understand exclusion on that factor may have been the catalyst that initially brought them together, but in my heart of hearts I want to believe that once they sat down and defined the permanent meaning of their org that they did establish a much more meaningful change the world type purpose.

If they didn't, which I still don't believe in history has occurred, then I would find that incredibly unfortunate. That is to me what, beyond the parties and bullshit, what it really is to be greek. In that theoretical situation they'd be missing out on the whole purpose of the experience. Actually, they would be taking good members that could have otherwise been in any other org that does have a major purpose to reshape their lives with.

So, no, I cannot identify any group that meets the criteria listed, and I do view it as an entirely theoretical question. I don't know how anyone could know it to be otherwise about any org particular unless they are an initiate with some experience beyond their own chapter.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

How precisely do you reconcile the two bolded statements?

The key word you're hunting for in those two bolded statements is "particular." I answered a question about my opinion on a theoretical situation that as far as I know does not exist. And then I said it is not my place to judge if that situation actually exists in any particular org. Those two statements juxtapose perfectly well together.

If it makes either of you feel better, I will retract the way I originally stated my opinion, and say instead: If MY fraternity lost touch with its purpose, I would move heaven and earth to force it to reconnect. If it did not have an original change the world purpose or had completed that purpose, then I would force by all possible means it to remake itself with such a purpose nationally and permanently. If I found that not to be possible, I would work to dissolve it, not because I don't love it, but because exactly because I do.

[MysticCat]

Thanks, dnall. I understand where you were coming from much better now. While you read 33girl's question theoretically, I read it concretely -- as a reference to orgs like those in the NPHC or traditionally Jewish orgs. So, I read your answer as a concrete response, complete with "they should dissolve." Given the posts of those who responded to you, including 33girl, I'd wager they were all looking at the question and answer concretely as well. Hence the breakdown in communication. Ah, the challenges of the internet..

Originally Posted by dnall

If it makes either of you feel better, I will retract the way I originally stated my opinion, and say instead: If MY fraternity lost touch with its purpose, I would move heaven and earth to force it to reconnect. If it did not have an original change the world purpose or had completed that purpose, then I would force by all possible means it to remake itself with such a purpose nationally and permanently. If I found that not to be possible, I would work to dissolve it, not because I don't love it, but because exactly because I do.

I got no problem at all with that.


But I am still curious as to why the emphasis on a "change the world" purpose as opposed some other noble purposes.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Thanks, dnall. I understand where you were coming from much better now. While you read 33girl's question theoretically, I read it concretely -- as a reference to orgs like those in the NPHC or traditionally Jewish orgs. So, I read your answer as a concrete response, complete with "they should dissolve." Given the posts of those who responded to you, including 33girl, I'd wager they were all looking at the question and answer concretely as well. Hence the breakdown in communication. Ah, the challenges of the internet..

I got no problem at all with that.


But I am still curious as to why the emphasis on a "change the world" purpose as opposed some other noble purposes.

MC you have so much more rationality than I do with this poster.

+ 5 million e-points.