Protests In Wisconsin

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I read the link and it addresses the fiscal year 2011. The projection is for a 3.6 billion budget shortfall for the next 2 years. Read this:

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/...n_state_budget#

Correct. The budget shortfall is for the next 2 years, because of the additional $140 million/year in highway costs, $68 billion in employer benefits, and other programs Walker pushed through.

If he wanted to fix the fiscal crisis, he SHOULD NOT have caused it.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

Correct. The budget shortfall is for the next 2 years, because of the additional $140 million/year in highway costs, $68 billion in employer benefits, and other programs Walker pushed through.

If he wanted to fix the fiscal crisis, he SHOULD NOT have caused it.

It's the Republican way. The rich get richer, the middle class and poor get poorer. And then that same person will gripe about how other countries are beating us out in math and science test scores. Well of course, because you aren't going to attract the brightest and best to teaching jobs if you aren't paying them enough to live on.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by AGDee

It's the Republican way. The rich get richer, the middle class and poor get poorer. And then that same person will gripe about how other countries are beating us out in math and science test scores. Well of course, because you aren't going to attract the brightest and best to teaching jobs if you aren't paying them enough to live on.

A typical teacher in Milwaukee makes ~$60K in salary with another ~40K in benefits thrown in.

My daughter who teaches in NC makes ~$35K in salary and another $25K in benefits. She lives in one of the most expensive areas of NC which is very comparable to Milwaukee.

I have been to WI numerous times on business trips and the standard of living there vs. NC is not very different.

The teachers in WI are not the "poor" by any stretch of the imagination.

I suggest all those out there who say not enough taxes are taken from the "rich" make a pledge to file only 1040 EZ so they pay the maximum amount of taxes without the deductions offered on the long form. That way you can pay your fair share before you take from others. After that is done by the Gates, the Kennedy's, the Heinz-Kerry's, the Pelosi's, the Boxer's, the Huffington's, the Clinton's, the Gore's of the land I will no longer call them hypocrites. Don't tell me I am not paying enough when loopholes are there and used by these libs to their own benefit. Time for all these people to put their money where their mouth is. Maybe a check off box is needed on the forms that allows only the maximum taxes to be calculated and paid. This should help the poor and soothe the consciences of the liberals. But I bet nobody would check off the box.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

A typical teacher in Milwaukee makes ~$60K in salary with another ~40K in benefits thrown in.

This is wrong. The mean annual wage in Wisconsin for an Elementary School teacher is $51,240/year. (Bureau of Labor Statistics) For middle school it's $50,950, and for high school it's $54,720. Typical implies average, and mean and median refer to average, but the "typical" teacher is, in fact, not making "about $60,000."

In Milwaukee, specifically, according to Salary.com, the median wages for an elementary school teacher is $52,401/year. For high school it's $54,639. According to the BLS the mean for elementary is $56,370, for middle school is $52,610, and for high school is $54,620.

Also, these numbers are the MEANS and MEDIANS, meaning, there are people above and below these numbers because they don't account for experience, number of years teaching, educational background, etc. There sure are teachers making $60,000 a year - but they've been in that district for a while. While we're at it, the 10% and 25% marks run from $32,962 to $43,292, which is quite a bit less than $60,000. 90% tops out at $72,865, which is $12,000 more than $60,000.

ETA because I was curious: According to Salary.com the area with the most parity to Milwaukee in terms of cost of living in NC is the Charlotte area, which is 4.4% lower than Milwaukee. The median salary for an elementary school teacher in that area is $50,974, and for high school is $53,151.

If an elementary teacher making the median from Milwaukee (making $52,401 per year) were to move to Charlotte, NC, to make the median there ($50,974), according to the cost of living calculator on salary.com they would have a $22/year negative net change in disposable income.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by agzg

Also, these numbers are the MEANS and MEDIANS, meaning, there are people above and below these numbers because they don't account for experience, number of years teaching, educational background, etc. There sure are teachers making $60,000 a year - but they've been in that district for a while. While we're at it, the 10% and 25% marks run from $32,962 to $43,292, which is quite a bit less than $60,000. 90% tops out at $72,865, which is $12,000 more than $60,000.

ETA because I was curious: According to Salary.com the area with the most parity to Milwaukee in terms of cost of living in NC is the Charlotte area, which is 4.4% lower than Milwaukee. The median salary for an elementary school teacher in that area is $50,974, and for high school is $53,151.

If an elementary teacher making the median from Milwaukee (making $52,401 per year) were to move to Charlotte, NC, to make the median there ($50,974), according to the cost of living calculator on salary.com they would have a $22/year negative net change in disposable income.

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

I strongly suspect that the "median" or "average" tenure of a Milwaukee public school teacher is more than 4 years. You're comparing apples with ping-pong balls here, son.

As I said before:

"It's really hard to use personal evidence and weigh it against statistics, since you have no idea what the "average" teacher tenure is in Milwaukee (maybe it's 20 years!), or what the educational requirements are (some districts still allow teachers to be licensed with just a BA, while others require one Master's and will increase your salary considerably if you get a second)."

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

1. Anecdotal evidence =/= statistical evidence or generalizable data.
2. I know what ~ means and I gave you the 10%, 25%, and 90% markers for the data that I cited.
3. If your daughter has been working for four years, and wages have been frozen for four years, why are you surprised that your daughter is still making an entry-level salary?
4. Is your daughter not in the teacher's union?
5. Why are you doing your daughter's taxes for her? Are you an accountant?
6. Aren't we constantly saying not to make generalizations based on anecdotal data?
7. $54,000 =/= "about $60,000. It doesn't even round to "about $60,000.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

[sceniczip]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

I've always loved this and send it to everybody who whines about how much teachers are paid I also really like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[als463]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

LaneSig, when you put it that way-it makes a lot of sense. You raise a good point. I'd also like to add that I think many Social Workers should get paid more than they get, as well. I don't want to lump myself into that category because I do actually get paid very well for the particular field I'm in. I have seen, however, many hardworking Social Workers and Teachers that don't get nearly what they are worth.

[als463]

Originally Posted by agzg

This is wrong. The mean annual wage in Wisconsin for an Elementary School teacher is $51,240/year. (Bureau of Labor Statistics) For middle school it's $50,950, and for high school it's $54,720. Typical implies average, and mean and median refer to average, but the "typical" teacher is, in fact, not making "about $60,000."

In Milwaukee, specifically, according to Salary.com, the median wages for an elementary school teacher is $52,401/year. For high school it's $54,639. According to the BLS the mean for elementary is $56,370, for middle school is $52,610, and for high school is $54,620.

Also, these numbers are the MEANS and MEDIANS, meaning, there are people above and below these numbers because they don't account for experience, number of years teaching, educational background, etc. There sure are teachers making $60,000 a year - but they've been in that district for a while. While we're at it, the 10% and 25% marks run from $32,962 to $43,292, which is quite a bit less than $60,000. 90% tops out at $72,865, which is $12,000 more than $60,000.

ETA because I was curious: According to Salary.com the area with the most parity to Milwaukee in terms of cost of living in NC is the Charlotte area, which is 4.4% lower than Milwaukee. The median salary for an elementary school teacher in that area is $50,974, and for high school is $53,151.

If an elementary teacher making the median from Milwaukee (making $52,401 per year) were to move to Charlotte, NC, to make the median there ($50,974), according to the cost of living calculator on salary.com they would have a $22/year negative net change in disposable income.

Wow, I didn't realize teachers made that much. I hold an M.Ed. and I'm working on my MSW yet, the "well-paying" SW jobs are for the government at the VA and that's around the same amount as the teachers in Wisconsin. Knowing that, I have a hard time feeling bad for teachers who make 50k a year-even if they are living in Milwaukee or Charlotte. I hope everything gets worked out, though.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

A typical teacher in Milwaukee makes ~$60K in salary with another ~40K in benefits thrown in.

My daughter who teaches in NC makes ~$35K in salary and another $25K in benefits. She lives in one of the most expensive areas of NC which is very comparable to Milwaukee.

It's really hard to use personal evidence and weigh it against statistics, since you have no idea what the "average" teacher tenure is in Milwaukee (maybe it's 20 years!), or what the educational requirements are (some districts still allow teachers to be licensed with just a BA, while others require one Master's and will increase your salary considerably if you get a second).

I'm not sure what they want--do they not want to pay more for their retirement and health benefits, or do they want to keep collective bargaining?

To the first, I say welcome to the real world. I pay considerably more than these people do towards my 401(k) and health care, and I have what are considered "excellent benefits" for the private sector. Also, the fact that you're still guaranteed a pension is nothing short of amazing. Its the complaints I've been hearing about this which is probably why they're not getting a whole ton of sympathy about this from the rest of the state and country.

To the second, I can see keeping collective bargaining. I'm union-neutral at best (probably just anti-union), but I understand how it can help public employees to some extent.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm not sure what they want--do they not want to pay more for their retirement and health benefits, or do they want to keep collective bargaining?

To the first, I say welcome to the real world. I pay considerably more than these people do towards my 401(k) and health care, and I have what are considered "excellent benefits" for the private sector. Also, the fact that you're still guaranteed a pension is nothing short of amazing. Its the complaints I've been hearing about this which is probably why they're not getting a whole ton of sympathy about this from the rest of the state and country.

To the second, I can see keeping collective bargaining. I'm union-neutral at best (probably just anti-union), but I understand how it can help public employees to some extent.

I think it's both, but more the keeping collective bargaining at this point. Reports are that the Governor never even went to the unions for concessions in the first place (which is what some state governors are doing in order to fix their budget crises).

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by agzg

I think it's both, but more the keeping collective bargaining at this point. Reports are that the Governor never even went to the unions for concessions in the first place (which is what some state governors are doing in order to fix their budget crises).

Right, you have to at least start there. It shows good faith.

This isn't about budget cuts, this is about removing the benefits of being in a union in the first place. And it is obviously not a principled stance, as otherwise police, firefighter, and trooper's unions wouldn't have been exempted. It can't purely be cost saving either or the above mentioned unions would ALSO have been cut. So now there's a political compononent. Can't be that they don't want to tick off the police union, can it? Like, maybe he feels like more police officers vote for him than state employees?

Again, the guy threatened to call the National Guard. Seriouslly.

As for the Dems who went to Rockford, they've stated that they want serious discussion or debate on the issue and haven't been given anything in the way of concessions or any sign that the Republicans are "working for the constituents who didn't vote for them too."

Seriously, both sides are being childish, but I'm kind of past the "you should be the better person" point on legislative maturity. Maybe we can bust the two party system in the process.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

Correct. The budget shortfall is for the next 2 years, because of the additional $140 million/year in highway costs, $68 billion in employer benefits, and other programs Walker pushed through.

If he wanted to fix the fiscal crisis, he SHOULD NOT have caused it.

He caused this all by himself? He has been in office 6 weeks.

Are you sure about that $68 B number? I have not seen that one.

You do know who ultimately pays the taxes put on corporations or businesses don't you? They are passed on to the consumer through the price of the goods or services.

Cutting the tax burden on businesses ultimately allows them to better compete in the marketplace and may lead to lower prices and higher employment.